Huge protests in Bangkok and around Thailand

[fela fan]

Well the poor in Thailand overwhelmingly support the Thaksinites.

It's the elite that want him gone.

FFS!





Woof

The poor and the elite. Nobody in between?

In any case i've just woken up and seen the news, and my suspicion about the protesters remains. Who are they? They're not the actions of the middle classes, so who are these people demonstrating?

I'm not defending this protest at all, in fact i don't see it being very good news at all.

But thaksin, mentor for the poor or not, has unleashed a divided nation, and that is his main legacy, not giving out a few bananas to the poor.

 

[fela fan]

Look fela.

I'm not suggesting that Thailand has a less corrupt system than most - I've lived in Asia and travelled extensively through the region for nearly 20 years - I have voraciously studied the political, economic and social systems of the region. I'm not clueless.

What I'm saying is that - particularly within Asia and particularly with Thailand at the moment, the least worst solution is the democratic one and that Thailand is veering dangerously away from accepting the validity of this perspective.

I think that this course of action will be terribly destructive for Thailand going forward, terribly destructive - worse than anything Thaksin ever did (and that's saying something,) and I think that the arrogance of the Thai elites - and of educated westerners such as yourself - and the "we know better" attitudes that stem from the anti-democratic nature and inclination of these groups, to be a major part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.

There's really not much we disagree over on this jessie. Except you putting me in the same category as the arrogant thai elites. I've never claimed to know better than 'the poor' of thailand. It's wrong for you to interpret me that way. I have for 17 years lived in this country and have learned many things about not taking things at face value in life. I have also been, for as long as i can remember, anti-middle class in many ways, and have always been a fighter for equal justice and respect for all people, from beggars to kings. I really don't know how you've come to misdiagnose me so badly in that sentence!

You've written a lot, and just right now unfortunately i can't do it justice to reply to it all due to an inordinate amount of work for the next couple of weeks.

But: i hated thaksin. I also recognised his impact on the poorer sections of society. I know real thais (let's use that term to refer to typical thai people, not the elites and selfish middle-classes) are generally very skeptical of their political leaders, and suddenly one came along and actually did things for them.

I know how massively corrupt he was. And i know how he divided this nation in many ways.

I am not comfortable with this latest round of demonstrations at all. I reckon this sondhi chap to be up to no good. I don't like what i see a challenge to the ballot box. These are not middle-classes invading government house, but i can see their black hand at work. I do wonder who the actual demonstrators are.

Thailand has survived dozens of coups. It's the growing pains of a developing country coming from a historically hierarchical system into a more democratic form.

My overall conclusions about political life here have never been formed. This country is contradictory in just about all aspects of life. I think it's a very human place and i love it. I agree with you that these demonstrations don't look good, and it's obvious some elements want another coup. I think that will be a bad thing, but i'd not be so arrogant to assume it would be mortal for the nation...

Finally, i agree with my girlfriend who i basically just about never talk politics with (her outlook is local, mine is international, when i do talk about it that is: i fucking hate it's ugly influence on the daily people and their lives): a government was voted in, leave them to get on with things. And let the opposition and media do its work.

 

[fela fan]

Well Sondhi's wikipedia page was a real eye opener, and then I found this stuff about what he'd said at a meeting a few years ago:

.

From this page:

http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/2006/11/17/charles-keyes-on-sondhi-limthongkul/


Me no likey this bloke!

With good reason!

Personally i've spent lots of time with lots of thais across all classes and wealth.

I tend to work with the more middle-class types, but mix with the 'poorer' sections of society. The most arrogant and least informed and most conservative people in this country, by a country mile, are the bangkok middle-classes, the very people this sondhi chap is referring to in your excerpt of him.

Ps, i'm pretty sure my memory's correct that this sondhi chap was a chummy businessman mate with thaksin at one stage...

 

[kyser_soze]

And let the opposition and media do its work.

Surely by protesting those who oppose the govt are doing what they're supposed to?

For a start, you cannot say that the protesters are, by default, the opposition. The official opposition is headed by the democract party, and they're nothing to do with the protests.

Well, yes you can. They oppose the whatever the government is doing on a/set of issues. Therefore they are it's opposition. That's a bit like saying that the SWP are in opposition to the Labour party because the Tories are the 'official' opposition.

This from Wiki's page on the 2007 election:

Despite being the junta's target for suppression, the PPP managed to win 226 out of 400 of the MP seats, close to controlling the majority in the House of Representatives. The Democrat Party came in a distant second with 166 seats, Chart Thai 39, For the Motherland 26, Ruam Jai Thai Chat Pattana 10, the Neutral Democratic Party 7, and Pracharat 4.

So basically the military banned TRT, Thaksin's old party, harrassd it's reconstituted PPP, a number of PPP members were assasinated and they still won 233 seats on the back of 5 million more total votes than the nearest opposition party. It was a reduced majority to TRT (248 in 2001) but still over 5 million list&constituency votes more than the Democrats managed.

 

[fela fan]

Surely by protesting those who oppose the govt are doing what they're supposed to?



Well, yes you can. They oppose the whatever the government is doing on a/set of issues. Therefore they are it's opposition. That's a bit like saying that the SWP are in opposition to the Labour party because the Tories are the 'official' opposition.

This from Wiki's page on the 2007 election:



So basically the military banned TRT, Thaksin's old party, harrassd it's reconstituted PPP, a number of PPP members were assasinated and they still won 233 seats on the back of 5 million more total votes than the nearest opposition party. It was a reduced majority to TRT (248 in 2001) but still over 5 million list&constituency votes more than the Democrats managed.

Kyser, there's a difference between 'opposition' and 'the opposition'.

The only tangible thing they demonstrated against was the government rewriting part of the constitution, but mostly and currently they appear to be protesting simply at who the PM is, not what he's doing or not doing. They are in effect holding a democracy to ransom. They are saying they won't leave until the PM has resigned. That is like holding a gun to the head.

How did the military harass the PPP, and how many of its members were assassinated? I can't recall any assassinations, but fair enough, i only really see any news at the weekends.

TRT were voted in in 2001, and were reelected in 2005 i think. It was the first ever full term of a government voted into office at the ballot box. You seem to have missed out a general election.

 

[fela fan]

Well the poor in Thailand overwhelmingly support the Thaksinites.

It's the elite that want him gone.

FFS!





Woof

Well mate, thaksin's gone, and i think it's more likely they supported him in the past, but now have moved on in their lives. Thai people are very good at accepting stuff they don't want to accept. Then they move on. It's a great attribute in my book.

So, what is it that the elites want? If it's what is espoused by sondhi, then i do hope they don't get their way.

 

[fela fan]

I'm not clueless.

What I'm saying is that - particularly within Asia and particularly with Thailand at the moment, the least worst solution is the democratic one and that Thailand is veering dangerously away from accepting the validity of this perspective.

I think that this course of action will be terribly destructive for Thailand going forward, terribly destructive - worse than anything Thaksin ever did (and that's saying something,) and I think that the arrogance of the Thai elites - and of educated westerners such as yourself - and the "we know better" attitudes that stem from the anti-democratic nature and inclination of these groups, to be a major part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.

Clear?

I know you're not clueless jessie!

As for democracy, well, i would like to point out there's two kinds operating, at least in thailand. There's the one that all westerners understand, the one where we go to the ballot box about every four years and vote in our choices for MPs and/or parties (it's normally the former in thailand, at least among the group you refer to as 'the poor'). When we get coups and stuff, westerners often point at the lack of democracy in thailand.

However i've seen way more grass-roots democracy operating in thailand than i ever saw in my country of birth. Even during the last coup, and no doubt all the other coups (all before i came here bar the one in 91), such democracy continued on as it always does.

I think you overexaggerate the potential seriousness of today's situation here. Thailand has got through numerous coups and always does. They're a very pragmatic freedom-loving people (just look at how they ignore laws if they are inconvenient), very good at compromise, and so long as face is not threatened, everybody just gets on with their daily lives. On a society level everything works in a really rather admirable way in my eyes. Until thaksin i'm not sure i ever heard of the words 'popular politician' muttered in the same breath.

The 'arrogance' of the elites has always been there, although i'd prefer to use another word. It's part of the way of life here, not of any particular problem that needs a solution in any one timeframe.

However i do have an unease about this current situation as i've mentioned on this thread right from the start. I fervently hope that they find a resolution that does not see a coup or the end of the PM, except in three years time when the next election is due. I've seen so many bloody elections here in my time!

The PAD are becoming rather unpopular right across the board right now.

 

[kyser_soze]

TRT were voted in in 2001, and were reelected in 2005 i think. It was the first ever full term of a government voted into office at the ballot box. You seem to have missed out a general election.

Whoops, so I did!

In 2005, TRT won 375 out o 500 seats, a massive increase over the 2001 result, on a 75% turnout, also up on 2001, altho it does appear that this was 'tsunami bounce'.

The only tangible thing they demonstrated against was the government rewriting part of the constitution, but mostly and currently they appear to be protesting simply at who the PM is, not what he's doing or not doing. They are in effect holding a democracy to ransom. They are saying they won't leave until the PM has resigned. That is like holding a gun to the head.

So are you saying that Brian Haw and his peace camp in Parliament square are doing the same thing? Or all those who protested against Blair, and now protest specifically against Brown (or Bush, or Sarkozy, or Merkl) are 'holding a gun to the head'? If anyone is in a position to hold democracy to ransom in Thailand from what I've read of it's constitutional arrangements (crash course this morning), it's the military.

There's the one that all westerners understand, the one where we go to the ballot box about every four years and vote in our choices for MPs and/or parties (it's normally the former in thailand, at least among the group you refer to as 'the poor'). When we get coups and stuff, westerners often point at the lack of democracy in thailand.

However i've seen way more grass-roots democracy operating in thailand than i ever saw in my country of birth. Even during the last coup, and no doubt all the other coups (all before i came here bar the one in 91), such democracy continued on as it always does.

What do you mean by 'grass roots' democracy fela?

 

[Jessiedog]

In 2005, TRT won 375 out of 500 seats, a massive increase over the 2001 result, on a 75% turnout, also up on 2001,

I thankyewverymuch.

Saves me digging it out for fela.



Woof

 

[fela fan]

Whoops, so I did!

In 2005, TRT won 375 out o 500 seats, a massive increase over the 2001 result, on a 75% turnout, also up on 2001, altho it does appear that this was 'tsunami bounce'.


What do you mean by 'grass roots' democracy fela?

I really do not get these figures you're mentioning, unless i'm getting mixed up with the PPP victory end of last year and the TRT one in 2005. TRT won that many seats back in 2001 they were able to govern as one party, the first time a coalition was not required.

I was certain they got back in in 2005 with a (much) reduced majority, and lost a lot of the absolute power they had before.

As for grass-roots democracy, i mean people having say over their immediate lives in meaningful ways. If somebody has a problem, they go to the village (as in local area of towns and cities, rather than the 'village' we understand in england) headman, who in turn goes to the next level and so on up until a solution can be effected.

I'm afraid that doesn't read particularly well to me, and i'm afraid i have a really low guage of mental juice at the moment due to a massive work impact in that regard. I can only say i think society here is very efficiently organised. Maybe i can help illustrate things by indicating how postal addresses work here: every house belongs to a moo bahn (village: group or community of houses), which in turn belongs to a tambon, a group of moo bahns, which in turn belongs to an amphoe, and which in turn belongs to a province. At each level there is representation.

I hear much apathy when i return to the UK (my comparison in the earlier post) because people commonly ask exasperatedly just what can they do about their government and political situation.

Here, at the people's level of life, they can get things done, and do. The nearest government office to my house is one kilometer away...

 

[fela fan]

I thankyewverymuch.

Saves me digging it out for fela.



Woof

I dispute the figures and increased majority though jessie, all the while awaiting egg to be put on my face due to faulty memory...

However i really do recall a huge majority in the first election so much so that was no need to form a coalition, while their reelection required a coalition due to reduced majority.

 

[fela fan]

Kyser, i'd like to ask these questions again of you:

"How did the military harass the PPP, and how many of its members were assassinated? I can't recall any assassinations, but fair enough, i only really see any news at the weekends."

 

[kyser_soze]

Election 2001
Election 2005
Election 2007

All the sourcing is from Wiki via The Nation.

Everything else you've described seems to me to be exactly the same as every representative democracy on earth. Lambeth Town Hall is 1.5 km away from me, and? I can contact an MP, MEP or local councillor, not to mention have direct access to government. And I'd put money on it that Thai's complain about their politicians and bureaucrats as much as every other nation!

I can only say i think society here is very efficiently organised. Maybe i can help illustrate things by indicating how postal addresses work here: every house belongs to a moo bahn (village: group or community of houses), which in turn belongs to a tambon, a group of moo bahns, which in turn belongs to an amphoe, and which in turn belongs to a province. At each level there is representation.

Almost exactly the same as the UK in fact. Electoral districts for MPs, MEPs and local councils based around postal code districts. Given this, I question your knowledge of the UKs governmental administrative structure at local, regional and national level. Also, i

You say 'if someone has a problem' - well what sort of problems? Noise problems - local council and possibly police; planning permission - local council, who also manage the building inspectors to ensure you've done a proper job; health - local free hospital. Want to change building use from business to residential - local council; want to build a road, County Council; want to complain about national policy having an impact on your area, write to your MP.

This is the stuff of socal administration mate - you need to be specific on what you mean by 'grassroots democracy' because in the UK it's things like local campaigns to keep hospitals and post offices open, or the recent climate camp at Kingsnorth power station. There are literally hundreds of thousands of local campaign groups in the UK, which is what I classify as grassroots democracy'.

"How did the military harass the PPP, and how many of its members were assassinated? I can't recall any assassinations, but fair enough, i only really see any news at the weekends."

After their political party had been dissolved, the former TRT members regrouped under the band of People's Power Party (PPP) led by Samak Sundaravej, the seasoned politician. Following its formation, the junta issued a classified order to suppress the activities of the PPP and to frame it for lese majeste(crimes against the monarch or state). The order was leaked to the public, leading to a complaint towards the Election Commission from the PPP. However, the Election Commission dismissed the complaint on the grounds that the CNS had granted itself immunity in the 2007 Constitution of Thailand.(Source - Bangkok Post)

The junta deployed 200,000 soldiers and police officers to maintain security and 1,500 officers to supervise after election fraud. Charnchai Silapauaychai, a popular former Democrat Party Party member from Phrae who switched to the PPP for the 2008 election, was assassinated. Five men, one of them cousin of a powerful Democrat Party MP were arrested, but all denied involvement.(Source International Herald Tribune)

 

[Jessiedog]

I dispute the figures and increased majority though jessie, all the while awaiting egg to be put on my face due to faulty memory...

However i really do recall a huge majority in the first election so much so that was no need to form a coalition, while their reelection required a coalition due to reduced majority.

Eh?



Methink you have it backwards, fela.

2001

Party Seats

Total

National Development 29
Thai Nation 41
New Aspiration 36
Democratic 128
Thais Love Thais 248
Others 18


Total 500

General elections were held in Thailand on 6 February 2005. With a turnout of 60.7 percent, the Thai Rak Thai Party (Thais Love Thais Party) of Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra won a landslide victory. Out of 500 seats in the House of Representatives, Thaksin's party won 374 seats, with its former coalition partner, the Chart Thai Party (Thai Nation Party), taking 26 seats. The opposition Democrat Party of Thailand (Phak Prachatipat) won only 96 seats and the newly-formed Mahachon Party took three seats.


Thaksin's party dominated most of Thailand's regions. In Bangkok it won 32 seats to the Democrats' four and Chart Thai's one. In the Central region it won 79 seats, to 10 for Chart Thai and eight for the Democrats. In the North, it won 70 seats to the Democrats' five. In the North-East (Isan) region, it won a massive 126 seats, to the Chart Thai's six, with two each going to the Democrats' the Mahachon Party.

I'm actually surprised that you seem to have a rather shakey understanding of the fundamentals here.





Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

I see kyser's on the case.




I'll nip off and have me dinner - avacado and spinach salad with walnuts and a balsamic dressing.




Woof

 

[poster342002]

Thaksin wasn't exactly a Salvadore Allende, though, was he?

 

[Jessiedog]

Thaksin wasn't exactly a Salvadore Allende, though, was he?

Nah!


He was/is a cunt - but no worse than many and extremely popular with the electorate.

Woof

 

[fela fan]

Kyser, you said:

"a number of PPP members were assasinated",

and now you quote wiki or iht saying "Charnchai Silapauaychai, a popular former Democrat Party Party member from Phrae who switched to the PPP for the 2008 election, was assassinated."

So i guess that number was one then, and he had multiple identities...

 

[fela fan]

Eh?



Methink you have it backwards, fela.




I'm actually surprised that you seem to have a rather shakey understanding of the fundamentals here.





Woof

I'm not surprised. I made a life decision plenty of years ago now to reduce politics to a minor role in my life. That included in effect not bothering with the newspapers and the repetitive garbage in them. I simply thought they received a smaller majority second time round. I'm still surprised at what you and kyser have posted up.

However i don't really know what you are referring to as the 'fundamentals'. My memory is not always good, but memory and understanding are not the same thing.

I'd have to be blind or stupid to not gain a basic understanding of politics in a country i've lived in for 17 years. And since i had a voracious appetite for it all in the 90s when i first got here...

An arrogant educated westerner, and now somebody with shaky fundamentals. Are you going to build on this mate?

 

[fela fan]

Nah!


He was/is a cunt - but no worse than many and extremely popular with the electorate.

Woof

I still would like do know if there's any objectivity behind this huge popularity you keep talking of that thaksin had with the electorate? And how you have measured the pulse of those 'tens of millions' of 'the poor' in thailand?

 

[fela fan]

Having read kyser's links, i can now begin to remember things a bit better! In fact, in the 2001 election i was back in england at the time for a year or so.

I do recall now that his love affair with the middle-class lasted longer than i thought it did. It seems it broke, and it was sudden, after the reelection. I think that huge majority emboldened him and his arrogance took a turn for the almighty worst.

 

[Jessiedog]

I still would like do know if there's any objectivity behind this huge popularity you keep talking of that thaksin had with the electorate? And how you have measured the pulse of those 'tens of millions' of 'the poor' in thailand?

Errrrr....


The massively increased mandate from the electorate at the polls in 2005 (please check the numbers above in the thread) - and it wasn't the elite, well educated, city dwelling, etc. segment that was voting for him - they hated him enough to organise a military coup against him, not long after being massacred at the ballot box?


The same people are now behind the current demonstrations - they don't like the results of the most recent elections either.


Woof

 

[fela fan]

Errrrr....


The massively increased mandate from the electorate at the polls in 2005 (please check the numbers above in the thread) - and it wasn't the elite, well educated, city dwelling, etc. segment that was voting for him - they hated him enough to organise a military coup against him, not long after being massacred at the ballot box?


The same people are now behind the current demonstrations - they don't like the results of the most recent elections either.


Woof

Jessie, you have referred many times to the large popularity so many of the electorate have for thaksin. Now you are talking about voting patterns. I was wondering on what basis you have measured how popular he was/is.

60% of the electorate voted in the 2005 election.

Thaksin was overthrown a year and a half later.

I think you'll find he had plenty of votes from the well-educated and city-dwelling folk. How else did he get this increased mandate? Had he increased the number of poor people since his first election?

There was a time when a bad word about him was almost impossible to find, then almost like a dam burst, suddenly the middle classes were openly against him.

As for the demonstrations now, chamlong has a history of being against the military, and saved the nation from it's dark time in 1992, and is anything but an elite. As for sondhi, he was a mate of thaksin's up to the point when the metaphorical dam burst, and i don't know of any links he has with the military.

Who is the 'they' who hated him so much they organised a coup against him?

As usual in thailand, all is not as it seems on the face of things. I'm sure the elites are a black hand in all of this, but just who are these elites do you think? And just who are these demonstrators who are being paid money to demonstrate?

You just seem to present it all in such certain terms jessie.

 

[Jessiedog]

Jessie, you have referred many times to the large popularity so many of the electorate have for thaksin. Now you are talking about voting patterns. I was wondering on what basis you have measured how popular he was/is.

OK.

Look at the increase in his mandate as posted on this thread.

Read the Wiki links (especially 2005) provided by kyser.

60% of the electorate voted in the 2005 election.

Thaksin was overthrown a year and a half later.

Yes.

I think you'll find he had plenty of votes from the well-educated and city-dwelling folk. How else did he get this increased mandate? Had he increased the number of poor people since his first election?

No.

The increase in his mandate came predominately from the grass roots who had benefitted from his policies over the previous four years. Read the info' in the post I made about the turnaround in voting patterns.

Sure some middle class+ urban voters still supported him, but most, like yourself, had turned against him. He was always a populist and his promises to the poor before 2001 were largely implemented thereafter, hence the massive swing.

There was a time when a bad word about him was almost impossible to find, then almost like a dam burst, suddenly the middle classes were openly against him.

Yer.

Began in about 2003/2004 IIRC and was soundly countered by the 2005 poll.

As for the demonstrations now, chamlong has a history of being against the military, and saved the nation from it's dark time in 1992, and is anything but an elite. As for sondhi, he was a mate of thaksin's up to the point when the metaphorical dam burst, and i don't know of any links he has with the military.

Irrespective, the current government was democratically elected - against expectations and even after the military had all but routed the TRT leadership after the coup - more than 100 were imprisoned and banned from politics for five years.

And still someone who was seen as largely supportive of "Thaksinism" was voted in.

The people behind the current demonstrations are predominately those that refused to accept Thaksins landslide majority in 2005.

Who is the 'they' who hated him so much they organised a coup against him?

See above. You should know the names of the backers better than I do - who do you think are the key players?

As usual in thailand, all is not as it seems on the face of things. I'm sure the elites are a black hand in all of this, but just who are these elites do you think? And just who are these demonstrators who are being paid money to demonstrate?

You just seem to present it all in such certain terms jessie.

I believe that the people of Thailand, in majority, support Thaksin and, in his absence, have elected a government that should be allowed to serve its term - unless constitutional methods (such as impeachment,) are brought to bear.

I don't support military coups.


Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

Again Wiki - not a primary source, but good for basic statistics and background as a secondary source.

Thaksin Shinawatra's re-election in 2005 had the highest voter turnout in Thai history and was noted for the marked reduction in vote-buying compared to previous elections.[4][5][6] His main support base was the rural poor in the north, northeast, east and central part of Thailand. Thaksin's policies were partly effective at alleviating rural poverty .... and at providing near universal access to affordable health care.

Woof

 

[purves grundy]

I believe that the people of Thailand, in majority, support Thaksin and, in his absence, have elected a government that should be allowed to serve its term - unless constitutional methods (such as impeachment,) are brought to bear.

I don't support military coups.

I pretty much agree, and don't think that Thaksin et al constitute a failure of democracy at all. What it should do is remind us that majoritarianism alone does not a functioning democracy make.

 

[Jessiedog]

I pretty much agree, and don't think that Thaksin et al constitute a failure of democracy at all. What it should do is remind us that majoritarianism alone does not a functioning democracy make.

Exactly.

And/But:

The danger lies, as I kept banging on about back in 2006, that with a fragile democracy - such as Thailand's - which is only just beginning to emerge from a history of rampant militarism, the recent coup has provided further legitimisation to the the concept that such behaviour is an acceptable approach to an unpopular outcome of the democratic process.

The coup normalises and paves the way for future such attempts and represents a regression of democracy that could entrap the country, once again, in a persistent cycle of political instability and repetitive military intervention.

To use military intervention to overthrow the only popularly elected government of Thailand in history that had served a full, four year term (after a 2001 election widely acknowledged by observers to be the most free in Thailand's history,) - especially after it had been re-elected in a massive landslide in 2005 (again in a reasonably fair election,) is the kind of arrogance I spoke of earlier.

The good news is that despite this kind of elitist, paternalistic, "we know best" attitude that drives those with wealth to think they have the right to subvert the will of the people, the people stood up again and voted-in a prime minister that everybody knew was backed by Thaksin.


The bad news is that the same clique is now having another crack at subversion - and, of course, it's not the grass roots that are organising, it was the grass roots that voted their minds.


The government of Thailand - flawed as it is - should stand firm and the democratic process allowed to play itself out.


(Sondhi, BTW, is the same cunt that was instrumental in the violent military suppression of student protests in 1976 - it's not him I'm supporting, it's the will of the majority of Thai's to elect and change their leaders in increasingly free elections, every few years, and to avoid the undermining of the development of this process by the will of a powerful and moneyed minority.)



It's interesting that I see exactly the same dynamic being played out in HK - albeit in a gentler dimension; the elite want to keep democracy at bay in order to continue to reap the benefits they derive through an unequal system that is tilted away from the welfare of the majority. The last thing the Taipans want is democracy.

A minimum wage? Maximum working hours (we average about 50 a week in lower paid jobs - which are the majority)? Collective bargaining? Better welfare? Better housing?

What? You must be joking?


I can't wait until we have some kind of democracy in HK. The shock to the system of our elites might just precipitate them to insist that Beijing intervenes yet again.

Democracy is precious to the ordinary people of countries that suffer from a deficiency of it.

It's not perfect, etc, etc. and in "mature" democracies, it's become a little too "greenwashed" by the elite.

But in emerging democracies, it remains the most powerful tool that ordinary folks have to make their voice heard as to the kind of policies they would like their public servants - as any and all leaders actually are - to implement.










Woof

 

[fela fan]

See above. You should know the names of the backers better than I do - who do you think are the key players?


I believe that the people of Thailand, in majority, support Thaksin and, in his absence, have elected a government that should be allowed to serve its term - unless constitutional methods (such as impeachment,) are brought to bear.

I don't support military coups.


Woof

I'm sorry, i never could do selective quoting.

I don't support military coups, never have done. I understood how it was the last one occurred, but understanding and supporting are not the same thing.

One real aspect of the last general election was that many thai people wanted to vote in such a way to demonstrate clearly to the military elites of the country that they should not impose their will on them via coups.

However much a large amount of thais supported and liked thaksin, i guess many had moved on from there being no more thaksin. Okay, he's gone, he's gone.

I did see yesterday somewhere that there are nine key organisers behind PAD. I only know the two names i mentioned before. I just don't read the papers any more for various reasons. Number one is that i wanted to continue having a politically-influenced life i'd go back to britain where i could usefully do things without fear of death or expulsion from the country i love living in.

 

[fela fan]

Sure some middle class+ urban voters still supported him, but most, like yourself, had turned against him. He was always a populist and his promises to the poor before 2001 were largely implemented thereafter, hence the massive swing.

I like reading your analysis and agree with most of it, and in other parts, in my rather poor political context these days, like to be reminded of inner workings.

But you keep telling me things i'm not! I never turned against him since right from the very beginning i hated him. As it happens i was back in UK studying when he got voted in. I heard plenty from mates back in thailand. I saw how he corrupted the highest court in the land to allow him to assume the PMship that his party had won. He began his whole reign by the highest act of corruption a person can make.

And, i just wonder where his billions came from? Obviously the taxpayers. Would that include the poor who he then came on his horse to charm? Did he first surreptitiously rob them and then return to apparently save them?

I have been in a personal conundrum since he took over the reigns of power in thailand. I look at politics from an international perspective, not unnaturally enough, and from this vantage point detested the man from the start. Not only was he saving the poor from themselves, he was messing with the fabric of the country and how people go about their lives.

There are two sides to the man, and you're only talking about one side jessie, having never lived here to experience the other side of him.

My conundrum lies in the fact that he was obviously popular with the less wealthy of the citizenry, a people who in every country i support inherently.

I learned a few things from this, and just posting on one forum here, in the slow written format is impossible to give out the full picture.

 

[fela fan]

Again Wiki - not a primary source, but good for basic statistics and background as a secondary source.




Woof

I don't like this wiki being used as the be all and end all of facts and truths, as you recognised. On this website it's pulled out as if it is some kind of bible.

But i read kyser's links and it said for the 2005 election there was a 60% turnout. I hardly think that constitutes the 'highest voter turnout in Thai history', especially in a country where voting is compulsory.