How's this for a solution?

[Gmart]

And thus return to the beginning of this thread.... The One State Solution is the only solution which is feasible and which results in neither side winning or losing, and means that everyone can get on with living their lives. Since neither side is able to compromise to this degree and would rather carry on fighting it is down to the rest of us to ensure that this happens.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: Hmmm....Applauding a Nazi allegory. Nothing strange there, right?


Spion: Israel does not say or believe that people need to fufill cultural or religious conditions to live here. There are more than a million non-Jewish Israelis.

"People that lived on the land were forced to move." You see, that is exactly what happened with the Jews! Yes, now with the Arabs but first, the Jews have prior claim, and second, Arabs were afforded 23 other nations PLUS a land to become the 24th. They refused the 24th. That was their choice, not Israel's. Israel had no legal reason to agree to coexist on Jewish land to boot! Yet, out of pragmatic and humanitarian grounds, we did agree and look what we have gained from it.

Bruise: "How is 8 months service in Gaza fgrounds to understand the dynamic there?" First off, it is not my only time there. Secondly, the statement was not offered as a reason for complete and utter understanding. Funny though, when people who agree with you, in that Israel is nefarious and brutal in Gaza even though they have never even laid eyes on it, you have no problem whatsoever. Collectively, you and yours could balance on the head of a pain allthat you know of the place. And you criticise me simply bwecause I answered a person's question quth a subjective fact? Get real.

My 8 months [even though I have alot more time there than that] taught me more than you could ever imagine. A week in Gaza is a lifetime for a non-resident, maybe also for a resident. Tell me Bruise, what do you base YOUR feelings on? Intuition? tirdhand fantasies?

"Rachamim was the oppressor with his gun pointing at the heads of men, women, and children." Now I know you know nothing of Gaza. Is that how you see it in your mind's eye? It might amaze you to find out that things were very, very different save for the two Intifadehs.

"Rachamim was an International criminal given that he was participating in the occupation of somebody else's land." Really then? Whose land? When did the "Palestinian" flag fly there? Anywhere? Are you implying we occupied Egyptian land? Since Egypt had annexed it, then in 67 abandoned it, Israel not only had the right, it would have been remiss had it not taken over administration of the land in 67. Upon taking possesion, Israel with UN cooperation undertook a major improvements programme that built new schools, hiways, water plants, wells, and other improvements.


Have you ever wondered why there have never been any indictments with respect to Israel's administration of both Gaza and the so called "West Bank?" Seems you need to bone up on your International Law a bit.

"Afterwards, did Rachamim have a cup of tea with Gazans?" Alot more than that. As I said, except for the Intifadehs, things were generally amicable there. Their lot was better then it had been under the Egyptians and many had an economic interest in the Israeli presence. There was a multi-billion dollar agri-buisiness there owned by Israeli corporations and the local Arabs often had steady work [something they had not had before or since].

"Bruise had a friend who worked alongside Israeli Arab "Palestinians." Hate to break this to you Bruise but Israeli Arabs CHOOSE to be Israeli and generally disown the label "Palestinian." In fact, some will fight if called it.

As for his parents who felt that Jews should not repeat the horrors of the Nazis, if they actually existed, they were terribly misled in many respects. The day Israelis [and 1/5th are not Jewish] start gassing "Palestinians," or even tatooing babies arms, I will be the first one in the trenches fighting against them. The thing is, it will never happen. You yourself are terribly misled. I hope that one day you get to visit both Israel and the so called "Territories." Then you will BEGIN to understand what you claim to have an interest in.

"Would not cross the road to piss on me if I was on fire." And yet I find it interesting that you accuse me, by nature of my Zionist ideology, of being a terrible example of humanity. Yet, when it is pointed out that you have not even bothered trying to gain a cursory knowledge of my outlook you respond with not being willing to piss on me to put out a fire. Brillant and hypocritical, all neatly wrapped in a narcicisstic bow.

 

[teqniq]

"Would I mind living in Gaza?" I was posted there for 8 months so the answer is, I already did.

Throwaway remark alert. Whilst you may have spent a great deal of time on active military service in Gaza. I suspect it was with superior firepower, logistics, medical facilities etc, etc, etc. Something that the real inhabitants of Gaza have little or no experience of whatsoever.

you and yours could balance on the head of a pain allthat you know of the place.

P.S. is this a Freudian slip?

 

[rachamim18]

Freudian slip? No just poor English skills. As for your point on my 8 months, it is a good point but as I said, that was not the only time.

 

[teqniq]

Freudian slip? No just poor English skills.

Well okay that was a cheap shot - maybe; I found it intresting nevertheless. 'I' and 'A' are a long way apart on a keyboard and 'pin' and 'pain' do not really sound much alike.

As for your point on my 8 months, it is a good point but as I said, that was not the only time.

As I said before: I suspect it was with superior firepower, logistics, medical facilities etc, etc, etc. No matter how many times that you may have done tours of active service there you most likely have very little comprehesion of how it may be to be an actual inhabitant of Gaza.

Presently you have many of the best 'cards' (see above) both militarily and politicaly. This may not always be the case. It is well past time (imo) to stop killing and start talking.

 

[Spion]

Spion: Israel does not say or believe that people need to fufill cultural or religious conditions to live here.

So a law of return which allows Jews from anywhere the right to settle in Israel but disallows Arabs who lived there 60 years ago from doing the same is a figment of my imagination?

"People that lived on the land were forced to move." You see, that is exactly what happened with the Jews! Yes, now with the Arabs but first, the Jews have prior claim

So, it's alright to ethnically cleanse people from land because some of the ethnic cleansers' forefathers lived there hundreds or thousands of years ago? You're making the racist nature of Israel very plain indeed.

 

[nino_savatte]

Realisticly its both their land, jews and pals. That is also the problem as neither side can agree to compromise with the other until they do they fight a war that last their and our lifetimes.

Depends when sanity prevail.

Strictly speaking, even the Jews who were born in Palestine during or before the mandate could be considered Palestinian.

That should wind up R18 but it is true.

 

[rhys gethin]

Well, rachamin, for the sake of tidyness - though little of what you say has to do with the real issues, might as well answer this heap:

Rhys: You take the Bible for verbatim history? I feel sorry for you. Herre is tip though, while Jews did take those lands from people already living there, they did so as the result of two gradual waves, emanating from modern day Iraq and the timeline ending about 4000 years ago. The people they overtookj by the way were not Arabs since Arabs did not leave Arabia, or even surface as a people for another 3000 odd years, were Canaanites. these were in reality Mycaenean Greeks.

No, as you of course know, I do not take the Bible for verbatim history, though the zionists always do when it suits them. If you don't, whence comes all this certainty about the very distant past? Been at the ouidja board, have you? The people who lived in Palestine so long ago were, doubtless, the ancestors of most of those who lived there when the zionists began to settle in the Nineteenth Century, and also of a fairly large proportion of the Jews and ex-Jews who have stolen their land. I studied Greek at school, and the suggestion that Hellas somehow 'forgot' about the wiping out of a very large colony by desert barbarians is laughable. Whatever the Sea Peoples were, they weren't Greeks.

As for Zionist Jews returning in the 19th Century along with the occaisonal Jews trying to be buried in Jerusalem...Jews have always stayed on the land. I am the product of a family from Hebron. If you read some objective history you will find that up until the 2nd Caliph, we were rebuilding our Temple yet another time.,

Tiny numbers did, doubtless, but too few to have been significant, most of the time. Look up the figures during the British mandate when there had been quite a long time to settle - the proportion of 'Jews' is still very small

"Many Jews were converts from other parts of the Roman Empire." WRONG, This was prohibted upon PAIN OF DEATH. ,

After the Empire became Christian. Before that Judaism was one of the more succesful of the various proselytising Eastern religions

"Or the Khazars." The Khazars monarchy did convert for less than 200 years but the commoners never did. In either way, they were a Turkic People from Central Asia that would not really have the chance to mix with any other Jewiush community save the Bukhari and it is easy to dismiss that notion knowing the Bukhari reluctance even today to intermingle with other Jewish groups. The Jews have been studied with a finetooth comb and these are not suppositions. These are facts.,

I think not. You are hot on unchecked assertions . About the rate of conversion we can't know, but 200 years is a long time, and there came to be an amazing number of Jewish people with very distinguishable folkways living in just the areas in which Khazars might be expected to settle, as you know. I leave all the genetic stuff alone, having read so much nonsense from that source about other populations, and knowing just how far to trust zionist 'facts' of any kind, ever. The Romans expelled 'Jews' as did the Spanish monarchy. Probably quite a few pious ones actually went, too!

You follow the same technique at all times, raising issues and then asking what the answers have to do with the question you raised, and trying to suggest that I, not your neo-nazi chums, have learned from Hitler. This is tedious.

I will say for you, though, that you have stamina and work hard. I think that it is somewhat disgraceful of AIPAC - and a little insulting to this Board - that they should leave you here all on your own. Before they managed to get me eliminated from the old BBC 'Today' boards those new-McCarthyites were throwing in wave upon wave of US zionists, totally ignorant of the BBC and Britain and firmly believing they were doing battle with the SA, or at least Mosley, if they'd heard of him. On they came to be shot down, singing 'Auntie C might' as they repeated the stuff we'd all contradicted eighty times already. But you, fair play, hold your machinegun nest all on your own, spraying leaden poison without cease. In its horrible way it is almost admirable!

 

[lobster]

"What is a Qassam?" It is a homemade missile used by "Palestinians." Almost always launched from Gaza.

"Why did Rachamim bring up Qassams?" Because you said that the "Palestinians" are desperately out gunned and outmanned and desperation leades to desperate acts.

Lets not go in circles... israel have far-superor weapons compared to the palestines.. making his statement accurate....

 

[rachamim18]

Techniq: When I alluded to other time spent in Gaza I was actually referring to time out of the Service. I first went there as a boy of about 8 participating in football [soccer]. The length of the trip meant we would stay over with local familes and I needed up there for 5 days. My host family and I became friendly and I would often go there in my early teen years. As a native Arabic speaker I was easily able to find my way around and much to the chagrin of my host family often wandered the surroundings. Yes, living in a "Settlement" was quite different from living in say, a concrete block home in Khan Yunis but I was able, as youngsters often are, to make friends with local youth. To this day 2 of those friendships remain.

Then, after my time in Lebanon during the wear, when I had become addcted to heroin, I would spend time there in Gaza for yet another reason. The Philadeplphi Road area has dozens of smuggling tunnels. 2 Bedua familes are in control of them, even up until today. One of the families deals primarily with drug smiggling as its main line.So, to be honest, I spent ALOT of time there. The only time I was not there was diuring the two Intifadehs, although my 8 months was during Intifadeh I.



"Time to stop killing, time to start talking." As I often have said, Israel has always been willing to negotiate. It is the Arab leadership that has refused, out of hand, to even listen to offers. The only prerequisite Israel has EVER asked for is a cessation in terrorist attacks porior to sitting down. With this past Sunday's agreement, this finally might be possible.


Spion: The Law of Return refers to NON-CITIZENS. WE were discussing citizen's rights. The "Palestinian Righ of Return" is a rtotally separate issue. Since you have broached it though, I will offer a brief explanation. Those Arabs that actaully lived within what is now commonly called the "Green Line" [Israel's de facto borders] and decided to I]flee, usually either because their were terrified into it by their mukhtar or radio voiced leaders, II] take up arms and fight the Yishuv [forerunner of the Zionist State], or III] [rarely] ethnically cleansed by the soon to be state of Israel in crucial areas are not some monoplithic entity.

As such, they cannot all be treated according to the same rationale. Then, to compound this conundrum, you have descendants of these refugees, even when some of the refugees have died.

With that established and to be considered, you must alkso know that during the negotiations for the 49 Armisitice, Israel under UN m4ediation, made cash settlement offers as well permitting slect individual to return. Those permitted to return were those that could conclusively prove that they OWNED the land they lived on, which was actually almost always sharecropped or rented in totality from a foreign landowner, and then only after they laid down their arms and took an oath of fealty towards the new State of Israel.

Those that did this, as well as those that did not, when producing deeds for their land, were made cash settlement offers. Often these offers were refused outright. This then legally absolved Israel of all responsibilities under existing Conventions.


"So it is o.k. to ethnically cleanse people from the land just because the cleansers' forefatherslived on that land some two millenia ago?" Actually, to be factually correct, only some of the cleaner's forefathers even left the land [my paternal linenever left]. Of those that did, some did not do so until 800 CE.

OF ethnically cleansing, only a total of 18 villages were actually "cleansed," not that this makes it any less reprehensible. Those Arabs, ANDS their descendabts, should be offered VERY generous compensation as well as a chance to become Israeli citizens if they should opt for it. Although at the time of occurrence the pracrtice was politcally sound [take a gander at the swap of ethnic greeks and turks thast numbered almost a mllion] it does not excuse the act at all. It should though, temper people's opinion on the matter.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: "Even the Jews born during the Mandate could be called 'Palestinian'." ABSOLUTELY. This is what makes the term so controversial and continues to cause me to use parantheses around it. Arabs only began coopting it in 48. It should wind me up? WhatEVER were you thinking? I often say the very same thing!


Rhy: "The Zionists take the Bible as verbatim history when it suits them." Please provide just one example of this please. Thanks.

"Whoever the Sea Peoples were, there were not Greeks." Yes, they were. This is well established conventional science and frankly cannot belive you are unawares of it. I suppose that I will take time later and poist some links.


The documentation of which peoples have lived upon the land, fromthe time The Jews first came there 4000 years ago up until the present is very well documented. All you have to do is look and you shall see.


"Tiny numbers of Jews stayed on in the land after the Roman Exile." WE constituted the majority of Meron, Tiberias, Caesaria, Safed, all of Gaza, and even Jerusalem.

"Pain of death for conversion to Judiasim only happened after the Romans adopted Chrostianity." Nope, it varied with emperor to emperoro but it was most often the case.

"Rhys leaves the genetic stuff alone yet buys into spurious fringe ideas about European Jewry being the product of a Turkic people called the Khazars." Might be time to give the genetic stuff another gander cause it proves you are totally wrong here.

"Rachamim has neo-Nazi chums." Really? Where? Please qualify that.If you use Nazi in an analogy containing info on Jews then best believe I will call you on it. Don't like it? Then do not use it. Jews only connection to Nazis are as the Nazi's largest demographic of victims.


I do not understand mnost of the nonsense in your last ad hom filled paragraph.

Lobster: Noone took issue with who was best equipped. The issue was, does beiung ill equppied cause one to do desparate things like suicide bombing. I maintain no, it does not.

 

[marksl]

Rachamim what you fail to grasp the pals outnumber the jews. It should be the other way round the israelis are in the minority they should be given access to palestine rights but that is of course if you belive in democracy or want to follow this land rights issue.

 

[rachamim18]

Marksl: Whatever made you think that I am unaware of this fact? I am a memeber of Kadimah, the political party in power based on the platform of land for peace. The land we offer of course is Gaza and 96% of the "West Bank." The 4% differential will be offset with 4% of prime land from Israel Proper. Why is Israel then so keen to suddenly offfer up these lands after years of developing a healthy infrastructure? Because, just as you say, the "Palestinian" outnumber the Israelis.


To hold onto those lands would mean that we would have to finally formally annex them. Doing so of course automatically would bestow Israeli citisenship to the residents of those lands, allowing them to vote, and then negating the Zionist character of the state.

Within Israel proper though, Arabs hold at a slightly [annually] increasing 18% minority with no danger of overtaking the Zionist majority, thus preserving the dream of a Zionist State.


Belive me, I am keenly aware of relevant demographics.

 

[marksl]

It wont be a dream forever. If the one state solution ever works and it uses the democratic model it be a pal majority and israeli minority this is of course if the wars stop but i suspect the israelis rather carrying on as they are than face that reality.

 

[moono]

The demographic reality will see an Arab majority in time, in spite of the Zionist liking for murdering Palestinian children.

You're not as smug on that issue as you used to be, rachamim.

 

[rhys gethin]

Rachamin's posts are WEIRD. He alone, it seems, has documentation stretching back six thousand years, presumably preserved on recently-excavated zionist websites, and his every assertion (never backed by any evidence whatever) is Sacred Writ, replacing the mere Bible in that respect. I wondered before what is the point of communicating with someone who is JUST a propagandist, and I should have paid attention to what I wrote. He will not understand this, of course: he never does understand, does he? Time he went on another AIPAC training course, in my view, poor dab.

 

[nino_savatte]

Rachamin's posts are WEIRD. He alone, it seems, has documentation stretching back six thousand years, presumably preserved on recently-excavated zionist websites, and his every assertion (never backed by any evidence whatever) is Sacred Writ, replacing the mere Bible in that respect. I wondered before what is the point of communicating with someone who is JUST a propagandist, and I should have paid attention to what I wrote. He will not understand this, of course: he never does understand, does he? Time he went on another AIPAC training course, in my view, poor dab.

Aye, he has set himself up as both the supreme authority and a font of knowledge. He will use the Bible when it suits him and other times he claims to be "secular". Truth is, he's not real; he's a figment of our imaginations.

This is class:

I am a memeber of Kadimah, the political party in power based on the platform of land for peace.

Kadimah is what now?

 

[bruise]

I think he's the ghost of Ariel Sharon's rotting corpse...

 

[nino_savatte]

I think he's the ghost of Ariel Sharon's rotting corpse...

Why are they keeping him alive anyway? He's a friggin' vegetable...insult to vegetables, I know. Maybe they're waiting on the technology to turn him into a cyborg.

 

[moono]

The ferryman won't take him.

 

[bruise]

perhaps hell is a little overcrowded atm?

 

[rachamim18]

Marksl: Neither side wants the One State Solution. The only person still pushing this fantasy is Khaddafi. Good company.


Moono: Therre will always be a Zionist majority wihin the Green Line. That is why the party I belong to, Kadimah, is shedding that unwanted baggage better known as the "Territories," save for E. Jerusalem.


Rhys: Quote me accurately if you ust quote me, or paraphrase me at all. Documentation going back 4500 years, not 6000. The rest of your post, as usual, is mere ad homs so I will desist in offering anything. 2 good books for you to read: "Heritage" by Abba Eban and "Wanderings" by Chaim Potok. Then you might wish to check out "The Myth of the Jewish Race" by Patai & Wing.


Nino: When have I EVER used the Bibile to prove anything? Complete lie, par for the course. Good to see you are as consistent as ever.

"What is Kadimah?" A Centrist political party which currently holds powwe in Israel.


Bruise: Jews do not bielive in Hell.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: "Even the Jews born during the Mandate could be called 'Palestinian'." ABSOLUTELY. This is what makes the term so controversial and continues to cause me to use parantheses around it. Arabs only began coopting it in 48. It should wind me up? WhatEVER were you thinking? I often say the very same thing!

Funny how you admit this but others would be willing to dispute it...including you when the occasion demands. The whole thing began when Israel was created in 1948, you decided to call yourselves "Israeli" to distinguish yourselves from the 'untermenschen'.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: When have I EVER used the Bibile to prove anything? Complete lie, par for the course. Good to see you are as consistent as ever.

"What is Kadimah?" A Centrist political party which currently holds powwe in Israel.

Er, wrong but you have you continue to accept the belief (as written in the OT) that Jews have a "divine right to the land", and this has formed the basis of Israel's [constructed] national identity. Indeed, you have mentioned it more than several times on this forum and continue to drag it out when required...it's your 'super sub' so to speak.

Kadimah? Centrist...schmentrist.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: No, we decided on Israeli given our historical connection to the land.

 

[teqniq]

With this past Sunday's agreement, this finally might be possible.

With this in mind, this debate on Newsnight is worth a watch. If that link dosn't work try this one and then click on the latest programme link. There may be a glimmer of hope, I certainly hope so.

P.S smack eh? Fucking hell.

E2A sorry above links are now for tonight's prog (30/11/06).

 

[rhys gethin]

Rhys: Quote me accurately if you ust quote me, or paraphrase me at all. Documentation going back 4500 years, not 6000. The rest of your post, as usual, is mere ad homs so I will desist in offering anything. 2 good books for you to read: "Heritage" by Abba Eban and "Wanderings" by Chaim Potok. Then you might wish to check out "The Myth of the Jewish Race" by Patai & Wing.

Okay, 4.500: I was actually making fun of your fantastic claim. When I was having to debate with AIPAC volunteers (of which organisation you have of course never heard) I was talking to mere supporters, the equivalent of members of 'The Link' in Britain back in the 'thirties. Now we are getting the racist word from the Mini-Reich itself, and 'fact' is inevitably provided by the local equivalents of Rosenberg and Himmler. I realise that your bafflement about any British references comes from ignorance of this country, but let me to just a little more of the 'ad hominem' for you. Because you know only what is put about by your own racists, you feel quite at ease in making what I regard as insane statements like your announcing that all historians agree that the Sea Peoples were Greek - which they simply DO NOT - and then demand that I should prove, say, the genetic background of elements of your Master Race. Well, it is a good tactic for someone who wants to avoid the truth, entangling opponents in perpetual research which can at once be contradicted by the production of some new Rosenbergish text out of the air. I have better things to do, however, and better things to read - like, for instance, normal history.

 

[marksl]

rachamin, the general view on this thread, the one state solution is the best out come, compromising to both sides. Unless you have another alternative that cope with the israeli and palestine view points both together?

 

[bruise]

marksl - he does have an alternative view. Israel is the best of all possible worlds. The "palestinians" should accept their bantustans and not get uppity. The end.

Rhys - what's AIPAC?

(and is it one of those acronyms that needs *s like B*np to avoid a plague of nutters?)

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: No, we decided on Israeli given our historical connection to the land.

That would be the 'historical' connection supported by the Scriptures - oui? The same evidence that you have denied using as a justifcation - correct?

It's been said before, but the Vikings have a historical connection to much of Britain, should Norway and Denmark annexe the UK?