rhys gethin
New Member
bruise said:
If that's for me, we are at one, bruise. I put 'gave up' in inverted commas to show I thought it was rubbish.
How's this for a solution?
- Thread starter Gmart
- Start date
If that's for me, we are at one, bruise. I put 'gave up' in inverted commas to show I thought it was rubbish.
rhys gethin
New Member
rachamim18 said:
As always, you sound exactly like the old South African nazis. You are saying that if people have been oppressed, they must go on being oppressed forever, eh?
The second para quoted above is, as I take it, part of your new science fiction novel. Good luck with it - but I do not think it will sell. 'The Jews', if the Good Book is to be believed, are perhaps natives of Ur of the Chaldees. You planning to colonise that next? Remember to ask for orders from the Burning Bush first!
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
rachamim18 said:
The Mujahadin had US supplied weaponry, you pillock.
The solution is the most simple. Cooperation and peace its also the hardest to achieve. Somehow have to get settle the past compromise and most of all put differences aside on all sides.
This won't happen unless both sides want to do it have the will to do it and want some type of different future to what they have now.
But getting through the complicated mess that exists will take huge inspiration the question this boils down to does either side want it or are prepared to keep the situation they have now?
This won't happen unless both sides want to do it have the will to do it and want some type of different future to what they have now.
But getting through the complicated mess that exists will take huge inspiration the question this boils down to does either side want it or are prepared to keep the situation they have now?
rhys gethin
New Member
marksl said:
It is the same with me and the people who have been using my credit card number to steal my money - just a matter of my learning a bit of tolerance and give-and-take (well, cancel the 'take' - that's their bit, isn't it?)
Gmart
Well-Known Member
The one state solution is still the only one in which both sides have compromised and can look forward.
Everyone really wants to have a family and create a community. If the Jews and the Palestinians can create a society which is tolerant and free enough for them to both live and work without having to fight, then this would be a great advert for both religions and their respective abilities to accept other people as different.
At the moment it is one big advert for how intolerant absolutists are.
These days it would be a terrible step to decide to create a state purely based on one religion as being right. Imagine if someone tried to create a Catholic only area (for example), there would be an outcry!!
Acceptance of one's fellow man as being equal despite his beliefs is a lesson which ALL religions have to learn.
Everyone really wants to have a family and create a community. If the Jews and the Palestinians can create a society which is tolerant and free enough for them to both live and work without having to fight, then this would be a great advert for both religions and their respective abilities to accept other people as different.
At the moment it is one big advert for how intolerant absolutists are.
These days it would be a terrible step to decide to create a state purely based on one religion as being right. Imagine if someone tried to create a Catholic only area (for example), there would be an outcry!!
Acceptance of one's fellow man as being equal despite his beliefs is a lesson which ALL religions have to learn.
GMarthews: I have a very full collection of books by Arabs in 7 languages. IF you would like one that does not touch on this issue but does oiffer one a brillant view of Arab society at large, try the "Yocoubian Building." It beats bogus posturing like Khalidi's. Besides, you still have not even read the various groups at hand's Charters and you are recommending pseudo-intellectual nonsense from a moral and academic criminal? You know I do have a regret about him. I did get a chance to audit Said in Columbia but not Khalidi. I wish that he could have singled me out for beratement as did Said. It would be something to proudly hand down to the kiddies. Perhaps he would not have desisted with child killer.
Bruise: Rabid Zionist? Funny, you and I have never even chatted once and yet you seem to have me all figured out. Utterly amazing those skills of yours. Tell me, do you also read fortunes?
Of your points....
I] Yes, in fact Israel IIS a non-racist LIBERAL democracy. The only one in the entire region. why does this frighten you so?
II]No, the problem is NOT all with the "Palestinians" although if one were somehow compelled to assign exact blame I have bno doubt that the "Palestinians" could easily shoulder well over 80 percent of it. They too have been offered their own nation since 1919 and their initial offer was 1/3rd larger than the Jews!!! It IS the "Palestinians" who have stuck with terrorism, despite it having set them back decades [if not longer].
III] Israel has done many bad things, ethnic cleansing, disportionate allocation of all kinds of resources, even among its various Jewiosh demographics, to say nothing of its many Arab citizens. IT has allowed the religious Jews to exert way too much of an authority over the culture at large, long after they really had to.
IV] You ARE NOT ANTI-SEMITITC if you are obsessed with Israel/"Palestine." Anti-Semitic is a midnomer since Arabs themselves are also Semites. Hence, your whole point is non-sensical. Let us assume you had instead said "anti-Jewish." I do not agree, again. There many reasons why people are so intrigued by a dynammi to which they have no connection with whatsoever.
V]"Israel has NOT ALWAYS been Jewwish." However, among NON-EXTINCT cultures only Israel can claim first dibs. That too is a fact.
As to what I am interested in, I am interested in a great many things, which you obviously haven't a clue about because...agina...you have never bothered to take a modicum of your precious time to get to know me.
VI] "Palestinians should NEVER roll over and die" and the person who wrote this should get a grip and some maturity.
Bruise: Rabid Zionist? Funny, you and I have never even chatted once and yet you seem to have me all figured out. Utterly amazing those skills of yours. Tell me, do you also read fortunes?
Of your points....
I] Yes, in fact Israel IIS a non-racist LIBERAL democracy. The only one in the entire region. why does this frighten you so?
II]No, the problem is NOT all with the "Palestinians" although if one were somehow compelled to assign exact blame I have bno doubt that the "Palestinians" could easily shoulder well over 80 percent of it. They too have been offered their own nation since 1919 and their initial offer was 1/3rd larger than the Jews!!! It IS the "Palestinians" who have stuck with terrorism, despite it having set them back decades [if not longer].
III] Israel has done many bad things, ethnic cleansing, disportionate allocation of all kinds of resources, even among its various Jewiosh demographics, to say nothing of its many Arab citizens. IT has allowed the religious Jews to exert way too much of an authority over the culture at large, long after they really had to.
IV] You ARE NOT ANTI-SEMITITC if you are obsessed with Israel/"Palestine." Anti-Semitic is a midnomer since Arabs themselves are also Semites. Hence, your whole point is non-sensical. Let us assume you had instead said "anti-Jewish." I do not agree, again. There many reasons why people are so intrigued by a dynammi to which they have no connection with whatsoever.
V]"Israel has NOT ALWAYS been Jewwish." However, among NON-EXTINCT cultures only Israel can claim first dibs. That too is a fact.
As to what I am interested in, I am interested in a great many things, which you obviously haven't a clue about because...agina...you have never bothered to take a modicum of your precious time to get to know me.
VI] "Palestinians should NEVER roll over and die" and the person who wrote this should get a grip and some maturity.
Rhys: You take the Bible for verbatim history? I feel sorry for you. Herre is tip though, while Jews did take those lands from people already living there, they did so as the result of two gradual waves, emanating from modern day Iraq and the timeline ending about 4000 years ago. The people they overtookj by the way were not Arabs since Arabs did not leave Arabia, or even surface as a people for another 3000 odd years, were Canaanites. these were in reality Mycaenean Greeks.
As for Zionist Jews returning in the 19th Century along with the occaisonal Jews trying to be buried in Jerusalem...Jews have always stayed on the land. I am the product of a family from Hebron. If you read some objective history you will find that up until the 2nd Caliph, we were rebuilding our Temple yet another time.
"Many Jews were converts from other parts of the Roman Empire." WRONG, This was prohibted upon PAIN OF DEATH.
"Or the Khazars." The Khazars monarchy did convert for less than 200 years but the commoners never did. In either way, they were a Turkic People from Central Asia that would not really have the chance to mix with any other Jewiush community save the Bukhari and it is easy to dismiss that notion knowing the Bukhari reluctance even today to intermingle with other Jewish groups. The Jews have been studied with a finetooth comb and these are not suppositions. These are facts.
We did have a certain number of converts over the years but the most prevalent cause for new blood entering our gene pool, at least until the 19th Century CE was rape.In Russia it is 86%!!!
"Like so many Spanish Jews, willing to change religion to suit the circumstances." What does this have to do with anything unless you are correctly pointing out that some [actually very few] of the "Palestinians" are actually cxonverted Jews. It happened all over the world mind you. It seems that you are suggesting that the bulk [or in your mind all] of "Palestinians" are descended from converted indigenous Jews. Genetic studies have shown that while there some [something like 3%], almost all are not from that land. The earliest rode on in with their brethren of the Ummah. Most came within the last 350 years from Syria or Egypt.
"Mr. Arafat was murdered by Zionists." Funny, something that Arabs would salivate over were it at all real, and yet nary a peep. Why do you think that is?
"Goebbles [again with allusions to Nazis, beginning to see a pattern with you] driven whatever about Arafat;'s wife." First of all, her name is Suha. Second of all she receives from the coffers of the PA's Humanitarian Fund, the sum of 1 billion per year,for life...in addition to her daughters material needs. You do not find this relevant? Not suprising since you only seem driven to argument, not resolution. The fact is, this very important statement is indicative of everything that is wrong with the molded PA.
"The 'Settlers' have shown that they will never give up anything." Hmmm....Remind me again what happened in Sinai? Gaza? They will do, ultimately, what their elected government tells them to do.
"Outnumber the Master Race." Well, at least you make no secrets about your mindset. Exceedingly easy to read.
You equate terrorism with the resistance to occupation. What resistance group ever aimed to blow up infants craniums as an objective? Name one just to keep it simple. Do you even read your own posts. If you do, it really m,ight help in the long run.
"Israel gave up Gaza because of fear of being outnumbered." Aside from yet incredibly yet another allusion to Nazism, we gave up Gaza becausae it wsas in our nations best interest for many reasons. One was indeed numbers. Numbering just under 2 million with a birthrate 4 times ours, we had 30,000 Jews being protected by 80,000 ground soldiers plus a ton of other support personel. It just did not make sense from a cost ratio perspective, despite Gaza being one of th emost Jewish lands [historically] in the region.
Another was that were we to attempt to hold on much longer we would have had to opt for formal annexation, which would offer them the vote, which in turn would negate the Zioinist character of the State.
So what? In the end the right thing was done. Are you so miserable that you even quuibble about why they got what they want? I for one am just happy that our young men [my trwo sons are Golani] are not forced to guard their brethren against a teeming mob of hateful foreigners.
"Like Hitler in 43..." There he/she goes again....Amazing!
Your last paragraph was more Nazi rubbish so I will leave it to rest.
Bruise: "I do not believe that Israel gave up Gaza, they just reconfigured it as a prison." Except that it only became a prison once rule of law evaporated. Maybe you missed the Hamas convoy exploding in Gaza City just after we left , due to sectarian fighting.
"Zionist regime, like the Nazis..." How ,many times will this happen in just one post? If it were not so serious it would elicit giggles,
As for Zionist Jews returning in the 19th Century along with the occaisonal Jews trying to be buried in Jerusalem...Jews have always stayed on the land. I am the product of a family from Hebron. If you read some objective history you will find that up until the 2nd Caliph, we were rebuilding our Temple yet another time.
"Many Jews were converts from other parts of the Roman Empire." WRONG, This was prohibted upon PAIN OF DEATH.
"Or the Khazars." The Khazars monarchy did convert for less than 200 years but the commoners never did. In either way, they were a Turkic People from Central Asia that would not really have the chance to mix with any other Jewiush community save the Bukhari and it is easy to dismiss that notion knowing the Bukhari reluctance even today to intermingle with other Jewish groups. The Jews have been studied with a finetooth comb and these are not suppositions. These are facts.
We did have a certain number of converts over the years but the most prevalent cause for new blood entering our gene pool, at least until the 19th Century CE was rape.In Russia it is 86%!!!
"Like so many Spanish Jews, willing to change religion to suit the circumstances." What does this have to do with anything unless you are correctly pointing out that some [actually very few] of the "Palestinians" are actually cxonverted Jews. It happened all over the world mind you. It seems that you are suggesting that the bulk [or in your mind all] of "Palestinians" are descended from converted indigenous Jews. Genetic studies have shown that while there some [something like 3%], almost all are not from that land. The earliest rode on in with their brethren of the Ummah. Most came within the last 350 years from Syria or Egypt.
"Mr. Arafat was murdered by Zionists." Funny, something that Arabs would salivate over were it at all real, and yet nary a peep. Why do you think that is?
"Goebbles [again with allusions to Nazis, beginning to see a pattern with you] driven whatever about Arafat;'s wife." First of all, her name is Suha. Second of all she receives from the coffers of the PA's Humanitarian Fund, the sum of 1 billion per year,for life...in addition to her daughters material needs. You do not find this relevant? Not suprising since you only seem driven to argument, not resolution. The fact is, this very important statement is indicative of everything that is wrong with the molded PA.
"The 'Settlers' have shown that they will never give up anything." Hmmm....Remind me again what happened in Sinai? Gaza? They will do, ultimately, what their elected government tells them to do.
"Outnumber the Master Race." Well, at least you make no secrets about your mindset. Exceedingly easy to read.
You equate terrorism with the resistance to occupation. What resistance group ever aimed to blow up infants craniums as an objective? Name one just to keep it simple. Do you even read your own posts. If you do, it really m,ight help in the long run.
"Israel gave up Gaza because of fear of being outnumbered." Aside from yet incredibly yet another allusion to Nazism, we gave up Gaza becausae it wsas in our nations best interest for many reasons. One was indeed numbers. Numbering just under 2 million with a birthrate 4 times ours, we had 30,000 Jews being protected by 80,000 ground soldiers plus a ton of other support personel. It just did not make sense from a cost ratio perspective, despite Gaza being one of th emost Jewish lands [historically] in the region.
Another was that were we to attempt to hold on much longer we would have had to opt for formal annexation, which would offer them the vote, which in turn would negate the Zioinist character of the State.
So what? In the end the right thing was done. Are you so miserable that you even quuibble about why they got what they want? I for one am just happy that our young men [my trwo sons are Golani] are not forced to guard their brethren against a teeming mob of hateful foreigners.
"Like Hitler in 43..." There he/she goes again....Amazing!
Your last paragraph was more Nazi rubbish so I will leave it to rest.
Bruise: "I do not believe that Israel gave up Gaza, they just reconfigured it as a prison." Except that it only became a prison once rule of law evaporated. Maybe you missed the Hamas convoy exploding in Gaza City just after we left , due to sectarian fighting.
"Zionist regime, like the Nazis..." How ,many times will this happen in just one post? If it were not so serious it would elicit giggles,
Rhys: What does stating an actual fact, that the Arabs who adopted the name "Palestinian" in 1948 have NEVER ONCE had a nation have to do with South Africa? Quit reaching and try to offer a logical reply. Thanks.
Again with Nazi quips.
You are correct that we originated in the place alternatively called Ur/Babylon/Iraq but that was more than 4 millenia ago and we adopted what is now known as Israel as our homeland and have, among all non-extinct peoples, cleaved to it like no other. It figures in our religion, our secular culture, and in every aspect of our communal life. In chain od possesion, a legal concept, how is the true possesor determined?
Again with Nazi quips.
You are correct that we originated in the place alternatively called Ur/Babylon/Iraq but that was more than 4 millenia ago and we adopted what is now known as Israel as our homeland and have, among all non-extinct peoples, cleaved to it like no other. It figures in our religion, our secular culture, and in every aspect of our communal life. In chain od possesion, a legal concept, how is the true possesor determined?
Spion: Does my use of quotation marks with reference to the word "SEttlers" also piss you off? What about "West Bank?" There a few others but that should get the point across. The word "PAlestinian" encompassed everyone, Jews included, that lived in the Mandate. It was not until 1948 that Arabs BEGAN coopting it. It is this reason alone that I use it, sorry if it irksa you but you might have saved yourself some aggravation if youI] searched old threads to find out just why I do it...or II] simply asked.
rhys gethin
New Member
rachamim18 said:
You make very heavy weather of the obvious point - which I've made many times - that the zionists decided to be like the persecutors of the Jews. It was an understandable decision 'to be cold and devilish hard/like machines' in the context of the time, especially of Hitler's time - but the effect is that (with perhaps those other victims, the Serbs), the colonists in Palestine are the nearest thing to nazis still to be found bullying and murdering in the world, and I haven't the faintest doubt that, given the power, they would use Hitler's methods to the full.
I'm afraid that your first paragraph seemed to me such nonsense that it put me off bothering with the rest, some of which would be worth anwering if I had time. Meanwhile, on the point about similarity to South Africa, racist governments often pause in their murdering and thieving to be hugely legalistic about (for instance) whether 'the Bantu' didn't in fact enter what was otherwise a uniquely empty land after the Afrikaner racists, or waffle on about whether there had previously been a state there. Who cares? Who is convinced by any of this racist drivel except people who are already eaten up by similar racist drivel already? The regime you support has stolen the land from its inhabitants and is bullying and murdering those who are still there. Decent people want you to STOP, you see, and accept a non-religious, non racist state to which the expelled people can return. There are no real arguments against this - just, again, Goebbels-like propaganda drivel of your standard kind. What is the point of such stuff?
Gmart
Well-Known Member
Most of the Jews came since 1945
History cannot prove possession. If we go back far enough then we all own Africa! The Vikings own half of England and The Native Americans own America.
The fact which you seem unable to accept is that being BORN in a place gives one a natural right to live there with all the rights of everyone else (ie equality)
Furthermore there needs to be equality of opportunity or else there will be justifiable unhappiness and even violence against this oppression which will be supported by that community in the name of freedom.
You seem unwilling to accept these very simple truths and all too often descend into trying to prove issues with history. This devalues what you have to say.
The reason why so many people compare the Israelis attitude to the Nazis, is that they feel that only this comparison might finally show the Israelis that to us they are committing the same mistake as they did. To discriminate against a group simply because of their differencies and using them as a scapegoat for everything that goes wrong; thus justifying actions which go against basic human decency.
To us we see the conflict through the lens of the media like anyone, but it looks like the Gaza Strip has been turned into a huge prison because the people there seem not to have any freedom, the stories coming from there are terrible and though you seem to easily dismiss them as some kind of anti-Israelis plot, we are not so sure.
We acknowledge that trying to use rocket attacks against the Israelis gated communities is a bad thing, any violence is! However, one cannot help but wonder if these are the actions of an oppressed majority, oppressed by the superior firepower of the Israelis. The same can be said about suicide bombers. These are acts of desperation!
To us, we cannot but notice that the Jews have set up "A Jewish State of Israel", which thus by definition seems to be distinctly NON secular, and thus discriminatory against other religions, specifically the religion of the majority of the area. The religious argument, ie arguing over who's invisible friend is the best, is why modern states tend to separate the church and the state. Israel may be secular officially but the impression is that the Jews have all the resources and are using their superior firepower to build a wall which is also taking MORE land from the people who are there.
You seem like an educated person, but you seem unable to take even the smallest of looks at our viewpoint. I can see the logic of wanting to go back to the land of one's forefathers, but to expect the existing inhabitants to just accept this without any kind of say in the matter seems unrealistic. As I said at the beginning, we all should have the right to live in freedom in the country where we are born. Do you understand this? Do you recognise this right? Would you be happy to be in the Gaza Strip? Would you be happy to be prevented from worship in your most religious areas? Would you fight if you felt oppressed?
rachamin - you misread my post in a bizarre way.
as i clearly signalled, my points were a caricature of the nonsense you and other zionists come out with - in your case in post after post. they were intended to be nonsense. I'm glad you agree that most are nonsense.
just bizarre.
(22-11-2006 12:20 PM in case you want to read it again)
oh - and of course I don't know you and haven't chatted to you. it was merely a reaction to your stuff on here - which i do (try) to read.
i don't agree that it's Goebbels-like - otherwise i completely agree with this point. especially asking what is the point of such stuff. the more hysterical and obscure Rachamin gets, the more he convinces me he knows, deep down, that he's defending the indefensible.
as i clearly signalled, my points were a caricature of the nonsense you and other zionists come out with - in your case in post after post. they were intended to be nonsense. I'm glad you agree that most are nonsense.
just bizarre.
(22-11-2006 12:20 PM in case you want to read it again)
oh - and of course I don't know you and haven't chatted to you. it was merely a reaction to your stuff on here - which i do (try) to read.
rhys gethin said:
i don't agree that it's Goebbels-like - otherwise i completely agree with this point. especially asking what is the point of such stuff. the more hysterical and obscure Rachamin gets, the more he convinces me he knows, deep down, that he's defending the indefensible.
Rhys: Both your allusions to Nazi Germany and Apartheid era South Africa are nonsensical and have no bearing on this dynamic...in any way.
GMarthews: "Most of the Jews came since 1945." Nope, not true. But, for arguments sake let us say yes, it is. So what? Those Arabs coming here within the lkast 350 years have absolutely no historic OR genetic connection to the land. The Jews on the other hand, even if they did not come there YET, DO have both those connections already!!! Bit of a difference...
"History cannot prove poseesion." It can prove CHAIN of possesion, which is a legal precept. England is not in dispute. Israel and "Palestine" ARE. The latter is in need of a chain of possesion. OF all existing national groups, the Jews alone win , hands down.
What are you talking abvout when you suggest that I do not believe simply being born some-place does not impart the right of residence? Of course it does. Ergo, Israel has how many Arab citizens?
"We are not so sure that the stories from Gaza are really anti-Israeli propaganda." Then, either check out the myriad of other news outlets that do report accurately or go yourself.
"Qassams are the result of an oppressed majority faced with better weaponry." It did not happen in Chad, Sudan , Eritrea, Afghanistan, and so on so that is a croc right there...
So is the fallacy that suicide bombing results from some from of desperation. Look at each of the 9/11 Hijackers! Each one came from an upper middle to wealthy family. So much for those two "theories."
If you wish to profile, it coes down to two things, Muslim and Infidel.
"A Jewish State of Israel is by nature not secular." You make no sense. Jews are a people. Judiasim is a religion. It is not the Judisiaim State of Israel, is it? The rest of your argument collapses when this is realised.
"Rachamim seems to be an edicated person." I am college educated if that is what you mean. My degree is related to Botany, nothing to do with htis or anyother political issue.
"Rachamim seems unable to take the smallest look at other viewpoints." Actually, you are totally wrong. I throughly examine opposing viewpoints in the belief that in order to be against something, you need to know what t is you claim to be against. Can you say the same?
"Would I mind living in Gaza?" I was posted there for 8 months so the answer is, I already did.
"How would I feel being prevented from worhsipping in my holy places." Well here is a bombshell partner, Jews ARE prevented from doingh so despite our control of Jerusalem. The Temple Mount, ever hear of it? It is a travesty and yet we accept this as the status quo in order not to uupset our Muslim neighbours.
GMarthews: "Most of the Jews came since 1945." Nope, not true. But, for arguments sake let us say yes, it is. So what? Those Arabs coming here within the lkast 350 years have absolutely no historic OR genetic connection to the land. The Jews on the other hand, even if they did not come there YET, DO have both those connections already!!! Bit of a difference...
"History cannot prove poseesion." It can prove CHAIN of possesion, which is a legal precept. England is not in dispute. Israel and "Palestine" ARE. The latter is in need of a chain of possesion. OF all existing national groups, the Jews alone win , hands down.
What are you talking abvout when you suggest that I do not believe simply being born some-place does not impart the right of residence? Of course it does. Ergo, Israel has how many Arab citizens?
"We are not so sure that the stories from Gaza are really anti-Israeli propaganda." Then, either check out the myriad of other news outlets that do report accurately or go yourself.
"Qassams are the result of an oppressed majority faced with better weaponry." It did not happen in Chad, Sudan , Eritrea, Afghanistan, and so on so that is a croc right there...
So is the fallacy that suicide bombing results from some from of desperation. Look at each of the 9/11 Hijackers! Each one came from an upper middle to wealthy family. So much for those two "theories."
If you wish to profile, it coes down to two things, Muslim and Infidel.
"A Jewish State of Israel is by nature not secular." You make no sense. Jews are a people. Judiasim is a religion. It is not the Judisiaim State of Israel, is it? The rest of your argument collapses when this is realised.
"Rachamim seems to be an edicated person." I am college educated if that is what you mean. My degree is related to Botany, nothing to do with htis or anyother political issue.
"Rachamim seems unable to take the smallest look at other viewpoints." Actually, you are totally wrong. I throughly examine opposing viewpoints in the belief that in order to be against something, you need to know what t is you claim to be against. Can you say the same?
"Would I mind living in Gaza?" I was posted there for 8 months so the answer is, I already did.
"How would I feel being prevented from worhsipping in my holy places." Well here is a bombshell partner, Jews ARE prevented from doingh so despite our control of Jerusalem. The Temple Mount, ever hear of it? It is a travesty and yet we accept this as the status quo in order not to uupset our Muslim neighbours.
GMarthews: "Would Rachamim fight if he felt oppressed?" Never attacking babies and women.
Bruise: Here is a person who admits never having spoken to me but stilll peerists in trying to psycho-analyse me? go figure...Anytime you are ready to actually talk, let me know.
Bruise: Here is a person who admits never having spoken to me but stilll peerists in trying to psycho-analyse me? go figure...Anytime you are ready to actually talk, let me know.
Gmart
Well-Known Member
A person being born in an area trumps all of this, though it would certainly be relevant otherwise. This is your main problem. For some reason you put more importance behind the myriad of historical issues, when everyone else naturally sees birth in an area as of prime importance and any historical issues as secondary
Ergo these Arab nationals should have all the freedoms of Israelis. Ergo the "chain of possession" issue you bring up has no relevancy when compared to this.
Unfortunately your view of which sources report accurately only seem to be the ones which support your viewpoint. While the sources i usually trust are not accepted by you. Thus there is little room for agreement here.
What's a Qassam and why do you bring it up here?
Trying to dismiss this act by using a single event which might have not been an act of desperation (we do not know) is in itself a fallacy.
My apologies, i was under the impression that the wording "A Jewish State of Israel" implied a religious basis, based to some degree on the written prediction that the Israelis would reclaim their land. Thankyou for putting me right. So Israel is secular and all the Arabs have the same rights as the Jews because we are all equal?
Yes i can, though i seem to see things differently to you.
I appreciate that you have more knowledge of this subject than I, however i feel that you might be slightly pro-Israelis rather than strictly unbiased. You certainly come over that way.
I am sad to hear this, all people should have freedom of movement within their land.
Are you trying to claim that Israel has NO blood on its hands from innocents?
I appreciate what you have to say, what then do YOU feel is the problem with the Palestinians? Why are they so upset if they have NOTHING to be upset about. They act as if they have had their land taken away from them, their lives, their rights, their friends. They act as if they have unreasonable restrictions on their lives but according to you they have none. They are as free as a bird and if you were in their position you would be perfectly happy. Those suicide bombers and the fighters in the street, they are just mad people. I blame the parents don't you know!!!
rhys gethin
New Member
Thanks Moono!
Spion
I hear ya
Whichever way you try and twist it, people lived on land that they were forced to leave against their will. They say possession is 9/10ths of the law. Well, Arabs that lived where Israel is had it and they were forcibly ejected. Now your lot has it.rachamim18 said:
Really? You wanna see the arguments you get in with racists here. They believe, like you, that there should be cultural and religious conditions people must fulfil to live here.rachamim18 said:
Rachamin - i don't claim to psycho-analyse you. i'm not talking about mysterious motivations buried deep within your psyche - i'm talking about what is obvious and bleeds all through all your posts.
"your (racist) country right or wrong". that's it. beginning and end with you.
your claim to understand the situation in Gaza based on 8 months tour of duty is unbelieveable. it shows just what you don't get.
how the fuck is that a basis on which to 'understand' the situation in Gaza?
you were the oppressor. you were the one with the gun pointing at the head of the men, women and children of Gaza. it makes no difference whether you actually pulled that trigger or not - to the people facing that gun, that uniform you were the enemy who has invaded their lands (i don't give a flying f whether we're only counting from 1948, 1967 or 2002), who daily murder, harrass and torture their brothers, sisters and children. it also means you were an international criminal given you were participating in an illegal occupation of somebody else's land.
after that you sat down and had a quiet cup of tea with them?
i had a friend who became Israeli against his families wishes. he claimed to 'know Palestinians' - and he used exactly the same turn of phrases as you once heard from imperialists in Africa who 'knew the black man' - and my friend claimed to "get on well" with them. He worked alongside a couple of "Israeli arab" Palestinians, for example - good guys, friends. "So" - I asked him - this was just before his tour of duty - "did you mention you were about to go on your tour of duty?" Silence. Of course he didn't.
His family took the not-that-rare point of view as survivors of the Holocaust who had fled to the UK and US that Jewish people shouldn't be repeating the same horrors as the Nazis. And shame on Israel. They found it 'difficult' to say the least that he had moved to Israel.
He isn't a friend any more.
Er, and, no, I don't want to speak to you. I find it interesting (sometimes) to read your stuff, purely as an insight into the Zionist mindset. That's the beginning and end of it. Other than that, I wouldn't cross the road to piss on you if you were on fire.
Sorry for the derail.
"your (racist) country right or wrong". that's it. beginning and end with you.
your claim to understand the situation in Gaza based on 8 months tour of duty is unbelieveable. it shows just what you don't get.
how the fuck is that a basis on which to 'understand' the situation in Gaza?
you were the oppressor. you were the one with the gun pointing at the head of the men, women and children of Gaza. it makes no difference whether you actually pulled that trigger or not - to the people facing that gun, that uniform you were the enemy who has invaded their lands (i don't give a flying f whether we're only counting from 1948, 1967 or 2002), who daily murder, harrass and torture their brothers, sisters and children. it also means you were an international criminal given you were participating in an illegal occupation of somebody else's land.
after that you sat down and had a quiet cup of tea with them?
i had a friend who became Israeli against his families wishes. he claimed to 'know Palestinians' - and he used exactly the same turn of phrases as you once heard from imperialists in Africa who 'knew the black man' - and my friend claimed to "get on well" with them. He worked alongside a couple of "Israeli arab" Palestinians, for example - good guys, friends. "So" - I asked him - this was just before his tour of duty - "did you mention you were about to go on your tour of duty?" Silence. Of course he didn't.
His family took the not-that-rare point of view as survivors of the Holocaust who had fled to the UK and US that Jewish people shouldn't be repeating the same horrors as the Nazis. And shame on Israel. They found it 'difficult' to say the least that he had moved to Israel.
He isn't a friend any more.
Er, and, no, I don't want to speak to you. I find it interesting (sometimes) to read your stuff, purely as an insight into the Zionist mindset. That's the beginning and end of it. Other than that, I wouldn't cross the road to piss on you if you were on fire.
Sorry for the derail.
GMarthews:" Beng born someplace trumps all other considerations." Not when you are squatting. The Jews were collectively exiled from the land, they never left willingly.Legally, this is saying alot.
"Ergo these Arab nationals should have all the freedom of movement that Jewish Israelis have." They have every right that we do, except that they have an extra one. They get blanket exemption from National Service if they opt for it.
"Rachamim's sources seem to be the ones that mirror his viewpoint." I read a compendium of print media, in addition ot other forms. I do not take a printed, or spoken word as fact until I can confirm it via 2 other disparate sources.
"What is a Qassam?" It is a homemade missile used by "Palestinians." Almost always launched from Gaza.
"Why did Rachamim bring up Qassams?" Because you said that the "Palestinians" are desperately out gunned and outmanned and desperation leades to desperate acts.
"Trying to dismiss the 9/11 attackers as upper middle class synchophants is a fallacy initself since it was only one event and as such, cannot be used to prove anything." so called suicide bombers do not commit thie r heinous acts out of desperation but rather because they have fallen victim to the cult of martyrdom. The posters, commercials, parades, school gatherings, even children's games all reinforce this.
"Since Israel is secular, Arab citizens have all the rights of Jewish Israelis, right?" Absolutely.
"Rachamim comes off as pro-Israeli." I definitely have an inherently pro-Israeli bias. I do however try to consciously take my bias and weigh it against the facts. I am certainly not successful 100% of the time but I do try.
"All people should have freedom of movement within their own land." When then Israeli P.M. Sharon made a visit to the same Temple Mount, it was used by the "Palestinian" "leadership" as an excuse for the 2nd Intifadeh.
When Israel took over E. Jerusalem from Jordan in 67, the plaza facing the Western Wall, the Jews holiest existing spot, was literally being used as a pig sty by Christain Arabs. This was compunded by the fact that the Jordanians did not even allow Jews the pleasure of standing in the offal...we were forbidden from even entering Jordanian territory.
Since Israel took control though, all religions have been guaranteed the freedom to worship as they wish. All religions have been given control of their own holy areas and to that degree, the Jews ceded control of the Temple Mount to the Muslims in order not to upset Arab sensibilities.
"Does Israel have any blood of innocents on its hands?" Israel has never had a policy of aiming for non-combatants. conversely, all 26 Arab militant groups publicly state that all Israelis are prey.
"If the 'Palestinians' have nothing to be upset about, then why are they so upset?" Well, even if your family is squatting somewhere, it is still all you know as ghome. You would not be hapopy to have to leave it. this is tempered with the fact that since 1919, the Jews have been willing to peacefully coexist with them.
In fact, according to the 1919 offer, they would have been given the large majority of both total land and arable land. they squandered that and all other offers, even as they became exponentially smaller with the passing of years. Then, during the Clinton years, an American brokered plan offered them all of Gaza, all of the "West Bank," and all of East Jerusalem. In essence, everything they asked for in terms of land. did they run with it? Nope! They refused it!
Blame the parents? Something like that...
"Ergo these Arab nationals should have all the freedom of movement that Jewish Israelis have." They have every right that we do, except that they have an extra one. They get blanket exemption from National Service if they opt for it.
"Rachamim's sources seem to be the ones that mirror his viewpoint." I read a compendium of print media, in addition ot other forms. I do not take a printed, or spoken word as fact until I can confirm it via 2 other disparate sources.
"What is a Qassam?" It is a homemade missile used by "Palestinians." Almost always launched from Gaza.
"Why did Rachamim bring up Qassams?" Because you said that the "Palestinians" are desperately out gunned and outmanned and desperation leades to desperate acts.
"Trying to dismiss the 9/11 attackers as upper middle class synchophants is a fallacy initself since it was only one event and as such, cannot be used to prove anything." so called suicide bombers do not commit thie r heinous acts out of desperation but rather because they have fallen victim to the cult of martyrdom. The posters, commercials, parades, school gatherings, even children's games all reinforce this.
"Since Israel is secular, Arab citizens have all the rights of Jewish Israelis, right?" Absolutely.
"Rachamim comes off as pro-Israeli." I definitely have an inherently pro-Israeli bias. I do however try to consciously take my bias and weigh it against the facts. I am certainly not successful 100% of the time but I do try.
"All people should have freedom of movement within their own land." When then Israeli P.M. Sharon made a visit to the same Temple Mount, it was used by the "Palestinian" "leadership" as an excuse for the 2nd Intifadeh.
When Israel took over E. Jerusalem from Jordan in 67, the plaza facing the Western Wall, the Jews holiest existing spot, was literally being used as a pig sty by Christain Arabs. This was compunded by the fact that the Jordanians did not even allow Jews the pleasure of standing in the offal...we were forbidden from even entering Jordanian territory.
Since Israel took control though, all religions have been guaranteed the freedom to worship as they wish. All religions have been given control of their own holy areas and to that degree, the Jews ceded control of the Temple Mount to the Muslims in order not to upset Arab sensibilities.
"Does Israel have any blood of innocents on its hands?" Israel has never had a policy of aiming for non-combatants. conversely, all 26 Arab militant groups publicly state that all Israelis are prey.
"If the 'Palestinians' have nothing to be upset about, then why are they so upset?" Well, even if your family is squatting somewhere, it is still all you know as ghome. You would not be hapopy to have to leave it. this is tempered with the fact that since 1919, the Jews have been willing to peacefully coexist with them.
In fact, according to the 1919 offer, they would have been given the large majority of both total land and arable land. they squandered that and all other offers, even as they became exponentially smaller with the passing of years. Then, during the Clinton years, an American brokered plan offered them all of Gaza, all of the "West Bank," and all of East Jerusalem. In essence, everything they asked for in terms of land. did they run with it? Nope! They refused it!
Blame the parents? Something like that...
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