How To Survive A Plane Crash

[catrina]

But assuming the impact force in an air crash are larger than in a car crash (more on which later), what would be the point in using a belt that has been shown to offer insufficient support/restraint in a car crash?

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Because in a car wreck you don't have time to assume the brace position. You just can't compare a car crash to a plane crash, a car is a tiny fraction of the weight of a plane, and therefore a seatbelt needs to ensure you remain fixed to the vehicle in case the vehicle itself goes flying. Plane fuselages don't go flying (no pun intended), they stay intact, but any free object onboard does not unless it is belted in.

The single point waste belt does offer sufficient support if you are in the brace position. It holds your waste down, and the seat in front of you keeps the rest of you from flying forward. That was the whole point of last night's program - the importance of the brace position (particularly the one designed for your seat) in surviving a plane crash.

 

[mattie]

Because in a car wreck you don't have time to assume the brace position.

That's sort of why I was championing the brace position in the first place. However, the brace position only mitigates the failings of the lap belt, it does not completely overcome them - the restraint is still only for the hips, the body is only restrained from the point of view that it will not be thrown further forward. If the aircraft impact bucks the body up, we have the same problem as car crashes.

You just can't compare a car crash to a plane crash, a car is a tiny fraction of the weight of a plane, and therefore a seatbelt needs to ensure you remain fixed to the vehicle in case the vehicle itself goes flying.

I'm not saying they're the same, I'm asking where they differ.

The comparative weights of aircraft and car are irrelevant - the person is slowing down, and the rate they are forced to slow down at differs between car and plane not simply in relation to their mass.

Plane fuselages don't go flying (no pun intended), they stay intact, but any free object onboard does not unless it is belted in.

Plane fuselages very rarely stay completely intact in the event of a crash landing (other than controlled, runway-based ditches, and even then it's not guaranteed).

The single point waste belt does offer sufficient support if you are in the brace position. It holds your waste down, and the seat in front of you keeps the rest of you from flying forward. That was the whole point of last night's program - the importance of the brace position (particularly the one designed for your seat) in surviving a plane crash.

I'm not sure how you define 'sufficient', the fact that somebody had to make modifications to the seat (by way of an energy absorber) suggests that current arrangements are not satisfactory. As mentioned above, however, I agree that the brace position is vastly better than the relatively unrestrained upright, but it's far from perfect.

All of the modelling and lab-based experimentation looked at impact and flail injuries, not spinal injuries - this is another point I'm trying to make, the programme suggested that you should lean forward to prevent secondary strike injuries, of course that's important but it is just as important in terms of avoiding spinal injuries as evidenced in cars. I may have missed it last night, but I don't recall them mentioning it at any point. It could be that the decelleration experienced is less than for certain types of car crash, I'm not sure, but the testing all seemed pretty primative (a sled driving into a stationary obstruction? How is that in any way related to an aircraft crash?) and it could just be that such modelling is not yet possible. A car crash is a great deal easier to simulate than a plane crash, and (sadly) there is much, much more empirical evidence as well.

 

[Roadkill]

Because in a car wreck you don't have time to assume the brace position.

Actually, you do see some racing drivers do it at the point they realise they've lost control and they're a passenger.

Not that that affects your central point, which I agree with.

 

[EastEnder]

Because in a car wreck you don't have time to assume the brace position.

Last time I crashed my car I had more than enough time to assume the screaming like a girl position.

 

[longdog]

I did read yesterday that actually the oft-quoted 'flying is safest' statistic is actually only true per passenger-mile (since many flights involve journeys of several thousand miles). The number of accidents as a percentage of journeys taken, and per passenger, is lower on the railways.

It's a bit like being on a thirty foot ladder. The chances of you falling off the bottom rung are the same as falling off the top. The consequencies are completely different.

If god had meant us to fly he would have given us clean underpants.

 

[Roadkill]

If god had meant us to fly he would have given us clean underpants.

Or, as Michael Flanders once said, 'If God had intended man to fly he would never have given us the railways.'

 

[boohoo]

Or, as Michael Flanders once said, 'If God had intended man to fly he would never have given us the railways.'

and so to round this all off, the general conclusion is that to survive a plane crash, it's just best not to get on one in the first place....


...not that I'm suggesting that cars, trains, boats or horses are any safer....

 

[Roadkill]

I was being flippant...

I enjoy flying. I get bored and restless after an hour or so in the air, but the acceleration on take-off is exhilerating and on the two occasions I've flown transatlantic I've enjoyed watching the lights of Bristol Channel slide by as the plane starts to lose height for the approach to Heathrow.

I don't worry much about crashing. Planes don't often fall out of the sky, and if they do then, well, it's largely a matter of luck whether you get out of it or not. I'll take a few basic precautions, such as checking for the nearest exit, and unlike many people I do usually pay attention to the safety briefing (usually wondering how it would feel if the steward pulled the same bored expression during sex), but aside from that there's not that much you can do IMO.

 

[EastEnder]

I enjoy flying. I get bored and restless after an hour or so in the air, but the acceleration on take-off is exhilerating and on the two occasions I've flown transatlantic I've enjoyed watching the lights of Bristol Channel slide by as the plane starts to lose height for the approach to Heathrow.

You manage to stay entertained for a whole hour?!?!?!

Take off is mildly entertaining, then there's the feeble anticipation of free peanuts (or buying the worlds most expensive Jaffa cakes if flying RyanAir), then, erm........ that's it.

I usually manage about 20, maybe 30, minutes before I'm bored shitless. After which it's either "Try to find position comfortable enough for reading" or "Try to find position comfortable enough for sleeping". Both usually fail.

If only you could get stoned on a plane......... that'd be bliss.

 

[boohoo]

I usually manage about 20, maybe 30, minutes before I'm bored shitless.

20 -30 mins before you're bored???

I bored after take off is finished. Or rather because I don't like being in the air, I spend alot of time wishing the bloody thing would land again.

Last flight I was on I had a hangover because I had got drunk to calm my nerves but due to delays, by the time I was on the plane my head was starting to pound. Still I did the journey without having to hold any random strangers hand.....

 

[undercover]

A frequent flyer engineer mate of mine told me that if something happens to cause a breach on a plane at altitude when it is still pressurised, then the thing that will kill you is toxic decompression, which apparently involves -

The thing that would kill you first would be toxic decompression, in which the nitrogen and other gases dissolved in your blood would come out of solution, causing cerebral embolism, shutting down blood delivery to the brain-this would likely happen in the first minute or two-quite a while before you would die from lack of oxygen or freezing."

 

[EastEnder]

A frequent flyer engineer mate of mine told me that if something happens to cause a breach on a plane at altitude when it is still pressurised, then the thing that will kill you is toxic decompression, which apparently involves -

It's less of a problem than you might think - a small breach will result in quite a slow decompression of the plane (Hollywood tends to rather exaggerate the effect), giving the pilot plenty of time to descend to a safe altitude (anything below about 12K feet is fine). In the case of a large breach, causing explosive decompression of the entire plane, embolisms are probably the least of your worries....

 

[Roadkill]

This happened at 24,000 feet. The plane was held together by the cabin floor supports...

The only person who died was a stewardess who was pulled out of the plane as it decompressed. Everyone else survived, albeit with some serious injuries.

 

[EastEnder]

This happened at 24,000 feet. The plane was held together by the cabin floor supports...

The only person who died was a stewardess who was pulled out of the plane as it decompressed. Everyone else survived, albeit with some serious injuries.

I saw a documentary about that, real nightmare stuff.....

Having said that, 24K feet isn't that dangerous. I've sky dived from 23K feet. You wouldn't exactly want to spend too long in an unpressurised environment at that altitude, but it's still over 5K lower than the top of Everest.

 

[undercover]

I saw a documentary about that, real nightmare stuff.....

Having said that, 24K feet isn't that dangerous. I've sky dived from 23K feet. You wouldn't exactly want to spend too long in an unpressurised environment at that altitude, but it's still over 5K lower than the top of Everest.

It's quite odd how that picture actually makes me feel safer about flying...

 

[boohoo]

It's quite odd how that picture actually makes me feel safer about flying...

probably because it doesn't look like a horrible incident on the motorway or in a train...

though I'm sure you'd certainly have soiled pants after that experience...

 

[EastEnder]

It's quite odd how that picture actually makes me feel safer about flying...

IIRC, they hadn't be in the air very long when it happened so all the passengers still had their seat belts on.

I normally leave my seat belt on for the whole flight - they're not that obstructive and it's not like you get much warning about serious turbulence or the roof of the plane exploding......

 

[Roadkill]

It's quite odd how that picture actually makes me feel safer about flying...

Same here. I did watch some of that 'aircrash investigations' series a while ago. That one and the French Canadian plane that glided several hundred miles to a safe landing after a fuel leak meant it ran out in mid-Atlantic were quite reassuring, in a strange sort of way.

 

[Pingu]

IIRC, they hadn't be in the air very long when it happened so all the passengers still had their seat belts on.

I normally leave my seat belt on for the whole flight - they're not that obstructive and it's not like you get much warning about serious turbulence or the roof of the plane exploding......

i do that too

I tend to just sleep on flights so its no real hassle to keep my seatbelt on

 

[undercover]

Same here. I did watch some of that 'aircrash investigations' series a while ago. That one and the French Canadian plane that glided several hundred miles to a safe landing after a fuel leak meant it ran out in mid-Atlantic were quite reassuring, in a strange sort of way.

Was that the one with Otto flying?

Seen that film loads of times, but I never knew he was called Otto until I found that... I may not have learnt how to really survive a plane crash in this thread, but I at least I've learnt something today...

 

[Roadkill]

Was that the one with Otto flying?

This is what happened.

 

[HAL9000]

practicing water ditching and parachutes

catrina

If you want to practice a water ditching try these people

http://www.andark.co.uk/site/other_training/andark_courses/huet/default.aspx

main problem is that its designed for small aircraft and transport helicopters going to north sea oil rigs


Eastender

I'm suprised they let you take a parachute on board, have you seen this story about D B Cooper?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper

 

[EastEnder]

Eastender

I'm suprised they let you take a parachute on board, have you seen this story about D B Cooper?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper

Indeed, that story's legendary amongst skydivers.

I never told them I was taking a parachute on board - just put it in a really snug fitting bag and shoved it through the X-ray machine.

It's a sports parachute anyway, so it's not that big or bulky.

 

[prnd123]

Well its incredibly English to sit back quiety and wait to die.

Yep, call the Stewardess and ask for a Scotch, whilst waiting.