How should we work with the underclass?

[nino_savatte]

Did it ever occur to you that they want to be left alone?

We'd all like it if you left us alone. Guess you didn't think about that - eh?

 

[lobster]

My point exactly: with the possible exception of "beggar", none of the people you've described automatically qualify as the underclass.

Is it really that those outside the system are more of a problem than those inside it (who don't necessarily pay their taxes either)?

Or is it just easier to target the less powerful ones?

Sure both people in and out can and cannot pay taxes, that was not really the issue i was looking at. I was not referring to problems actually more about when time comes for society change , should we look for there support?
Its a very hypothetical question but nevertheless that's what i implied.

 

[Jografer]

How very nice of you to care....

.... where do you get your blue rinse done....

 

[lobster]

That is rubbish. They pay taxes on their family credit/income support etc not to mention their beer and fags. The problem is not that they are outside the system, but they are in it and denied the opportunity to be better off.

We must be talking about different people here, unemployed are part of a class. I agree many unemployed are denied a better future and are sadly ignored.

 

[lobster]

Lobster, I suggest you stop digging. The hole you have dug is already deeper than you are tall, and the sides keep falling in.

IMHO the way that longterm benefit claimants (a heterogenous mass which can't all be "helped" by the same methods) are frequently lumped in with "drug addicts, prostitutes, pimps, beggers, swindlers, gamblers" is offensive.

Most benefits are taxable - Incapacity Benefit has tax docked from it before you even get it. The same goes IIRC for DLA and CA. The main reason more benefit claimants aren't aware of this is that their benefits don't take them over the annual tax threshold. Work and/or education is not (and never will be) the solution for everyone whom Lobster has deemed to be underclass.

What might help some of the "underclass" (for want of a better word) who can be helped is to offer help on the individual's terms, in a way that the individual might have a chance of accepting it - not to suit the convenience of some well-meaning person who's looking at the situation from outside and frankly hasn't got a clue what it's like.

So don't ask here. Go into the real world, ask a person you think is underclass and listen to the reply, even if it makes no sense to you.

Then ask the next oooh let's say 500 people you think are underclass.

Then have a good think.

Then go back to your sample (if possible) and check that you've understood what was said.

IMHO then and only then should you offer help, and even then, you should ask whether this is in a form which will actually help and can be taken up. When people take up the help, keep checking that it does actually help them (and if not, what needs to be changed) - you need to keep track for at least a few years,

That is "working with" people.

sorry for my misunderstanding , i did make my original post very clear.
the unemployed are not part of "drug addicts, prostitutes, pimps, beggers, swindlers, gamblers" as you rightly say

Getting people back into work is a aim, which i am not denying, ive been there before i went back to study, in fact i am getting support ..

Anyway i know of people indirectly that have been on long term income support, a friend i knew a long time ago was on it for over 2 years at the time.

 

[brasicritique]

People classed as drug addicts, prostitutes , pimps, beggers , swindlers gamblers and others similar people of society.
I think looking at this class and trying to encourage change instead of ignoring them is better than leaving them on there own.

I dont see how these people can be considered 'underclass' still Lobster by name.....

 

[shoeshopsally]

the underclass? we/them

i came across an 'interesting' article on the underclass as part of my revision see http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.14891/pub_detail.asp
it amazes me that a supossed academic can get away with what are essentially racist, discriminatory views.

 

[ViolentPanda]

i came across an 'interesting' article on the underclass as part of my revision see http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.14891/pub_detail.asp
it amazes me that a supossed academic can get away with what are essentially racist, discriminatory views.

Charles Murray has limited credibility, given the egregious nature of his and Herrnstein's "scholarship" with regard to "The Bell Curve". Most of his readership is US-based small "c" conservatives, along with the usual fringe of hard-rightists.

 

[Hoxtontwat]

Did anyone catch Gary O'Shea's comments at the Community Organising round table at Projectile?

The "underclass" came up in his response to a question on how community organisations should deal with "antisocial people"

I hope he'll forgive me if i don't have this right but i think his argument was that organised crime (crack dealing and prostitution etc) on estates is encoraged in many instances by the police and council who operate a containment stratergy. This inbvolves housing problem households together and trying to prevent the effects of their activities from affecting those outsied the immidiate area, leaving the activities alone so long as they are only affecting the immidiate neighbourhood. He said that, in this way the authorities have colluded in the creation of an underclass which often suits their puposes, for example by running down area's which can be sold off or redeveloped later on.

He advocated community resistance against this situation encoraged by activists organising within these areas.

I agreed with the nessacity of his proposed solutions but was unsure that i agree there is a distinct underclass.

Normally i hate it when people use this word as it tends to get bandied about when people mean to say working class but prefer to use a modern buzz work instead. Also i tend to think of it as an insulting term.

On the other hand i was able to recognise the kind of situation he was talking about. He put it very forcefully at one point stating that "there is an underclass within the working class whose values are opposed to the rest of the class."

It did make me think about things a bit differently afterwards. There are places where third generation drug addicts are common. That surely means a distinct culture and set of values to "ordainary" working class people. Does it make sence, then to talk about a distinct underclass after all?

 

[audiotech]

I agree with O'Shea.

The council have moved a crack and heroin addict into the estate where I live. Apparently, he's a career criminal and is not bothered about going to jail, because he likes the institutional regime - believed to have been involved in two recent burglaries - one in my block.

We also have someone with past criminal associates, one of whom was carted out of his and his partners house only two doors away from me by about eight police the other night in a raid. I've been informed that he is expected to get eight years for criminal offences I know nothing about.

I've noticed too some pond life who recently moved in with his girlfriend, likes to threaten violence (maybe carrying it out as well?) against her on a regular basis. She has a young child to another bloke. Also, young single mother with teenage son - does fuck all apart from play on his computer and smokes dope. Apparently a neighbour had a talk with said single mother about his behaviour. The neighbour received a warning letter from council about "harassment" after the young lads mother put in a complaint about him!

Another flat is occupied by a young woman, who I think is fleeing violence from an ex-partner and people (mainly young males) are coming and going all the time. Some of them think it's alright to intimidate people in the area.

I could go on, but I'm amazed at the speed of change around here. 12 months ago it was all so very different. Now it's heading towards the proverbial pits and I'm stuck.

Unfortunately, the only fightback I've heard so far is setting up a neighbourhood watch, working with the police. I've made some suggestions about setting up a tenants group which is independent, but I'm up against it on my own. Will keep trying though and O'Sheas suggestion of "community resistance against this situation encouraged by activists organising within these areas" is spot on.

Any links to the Community Organising round table at Projectile where this was discussed?

 

[Hoxtontwat]

The round table was Haringay Solidarity Group (HSG), Praxis from Glasgow, London Coalition Against Poverty (LCAP) and Independant Working Class Association (IWCA). Gary O'Shea was speaking for the IWCA.

I'm crap at computors so I cant send you links but you could google them.

The two practical examples that O'Shea gave were:

1. Residents holding a demonstration to reclaim a park used for drug deadling.

2. Residents buiding a wall to block off an alleyway which was a notorious mugging blackspot.

I was on the panel as the LCAP representative but didn't have much to say on that particular question. We are a small group and relatively new.

We did work with the residents of an emergency hostel to campaign for a security gate to prevent drug takers and prostitutes from using the stair wells, landings and lifts.

This also had the unexpected side effect of combating domestic violence as women were talking to each other more and gaining confidence and the the support of others.

 

[audiotech]

The round table was Haringay Solidarity Group (HSG), Praxis from Glasgow, London Coalition Against Poverty (LCAP) and Independant Working Class Association (IWCA). Gary O'Shea was speaking for the IWCA.

I'm crap at computors so I cant send you links but you could google them.

The two practical examples that O'Shea gave were:

1. Residents holding a demonstration to reclaim a park used for drug deadling.

2. Residents buiding a wall to block off an alleyway which was a notorious mugging blackspot.

I was on the panel as the LCAP representative but didn't have much to say on that particular question. We are a small group and relatively new.

We did work with the residents of an emergency hostel to campaign for a security gate to prevent drug takers and prostitutes from using the stair wells, landings and lifts.

This also had the unexpected side effect of combating domestic violence as women were talking to each other more and gaining confidence and the the support of others.

Thanks.

I've tried google but no luck.

Just cut and paste the browser link if you have it?

 

[audiotech]

Now, if we had more like this from supporters of the IWCA, HI instead of the usual sectarian bollocks then we could move ahead on this. No?

Durruti?

 

[Hoxtontwat]

http://www.haringey.org.uk/

http://www.iwca.info/

http://www.lcap.org.uk/

 

[Hoxtontwat]

Yay it works!

I honestly had no idea how to do that till just now.

 

[audiotech]

Yay it works!

I honestly had no idea how to do that till just now.

Good job.

 

[Hoxtontwat]

Now, if we had more like this from supporters of the IWCA, HI instead of the usual sectarian bollocks then we could move ahead on this. No?

I dunno. The IWCA/HI split was notable for the dignified lack of public sniping
on both sides.

 

[Blagsta]

The round table was Haringay Solidarity Group (HSG), Praxis from Glasgow, London Coalition Against Poverty (LCAP) and Independant Working Class Association (IWCA). Gary O'Shea was speaking for the IWCA.

I'm crap at computors so I cant send you links but you could google them.

The two practical examples that O'Shea gave were:

1. Residents holding a demonstration to reclaim a park used for drug deadling.

2. Residents buiding a wall to block off an alleyway which was a notorious mugging blackspot.

I was on the panel as the LCAP representative but didn't have much to say on that particular question. We are a small group and relatively new.

We did work with the residents of an emergency hostel to campaign for a security gate to prevent drug takers and prostitutes from using the stair wells, landings and lifts.

This also had the unexpected side effect of combating domestic violence as women were talking to each other more and gaining confidence and the the support of others.

It might be worth making some links with groups like The Methadone Alliance to work with drug users rather than against them. After all, drug users are also part of our communities and often a very vulnerable part.

 

[audiotech]

I dunno. The IWCA/HI split was notable for the dignified lack of public sniping
on both sides.

It's the supposed *supporters* on here who get up my nose. Most of them claim to support, but in reality do fuck all but come on here and either spew out their one liners, involve themselves in obscure semantics and caricature the rest of the left.

Pretty pathetic really.

 

[Hoxtontwat]

We did n't work against the drug users. We campaigned for a security gate. The drug users are taking drugs some other place. completely unimpeded by us.

 

[Hoxtontwat]

It's the supposed *supporters* on here who get up my nose. Most of them claim to support, but in reality do fuck all but come on here and either spew out their one liners, involve themselves in obscure semantics and caricature the rest of the left.

Pretty pathetic really.

Ah fair enough

 

[Blagsta]

We did n't work against the drug users. We campaigned for a security gate. The drug users are taking drugs some other place. completely unimpeded by us.

What I meant was if you made links with service user groups, drug users advocacy groups etc, then some inroads could be made in addressing the anti-social behaviour of some drug users. Much like needle exchange campaigns not to dump used works or the stuff that Black Poppy magazine has done around disposing of used works. I notice you've already got links with The Pavement magazine, which is great.

 

[Mr Moose]

People classed as drug addicts, prostitutes , pimps, beggers , swindlers gamblers and others similar people of society.
I think looking at this class and trying to encourage change instead of ignoring them is better than leaving them on there own.

Hang on are you talking about....

All the number book takers?
Thugs, pimps, pushers and the big money makers?
Smugglers, scramblers, burglars, gamblers?
Pickpockets, peddlers even panhandlers?

 

[Hoxtontwat]

What I meant was if you made links with service user groups, drug users advocacy groups etc, then some inroads could be made in addressing the anti-social behaviour of some drug users. Much like needle exchange campaigns not to dump used works or the stuff that Black Poppy magazine has done around disposing of used works. I notice you've already got links with The Pavement magazine, which is great.

Well, we choose our campaigns on the basis of who comtacts us for help. With a very few notable exceptions we will back up anyone who is being fucked around or denied their rights and is willing to put up a fight.

We would probably consider working with drug users in a different situation- there just was n't particularly a need in those circumstances.

 

[lobster]

On the other hand i was able to recognise the kind of situation he was talking about. He put it very forcefully at one point stating that "there is an underclass within the working class whose values are opposed to the rest of the class."

It did make me think about things a bit differently afterwards. There are places where third generation drug addicts are common. That surely means a distinct culture and set of values to "ordainary" working class people. Does it make sence, then to talk about a distinct underclass after all?

This was what I originally meant. I think its very relevant.

 

[lobster]

Hang on are you talking about....

All the number book takers?
Thugs, pimps, pushers and the big money makers?
Smugglers, scramblers, burglars, gamblers?
Pickpockets, peddlers even panhandlers?

yeah, they not part of the working class.

 

[Hoxtontwat]

This was what I originally meant. I think its very relevant.

Bloody hell you could have expressed yourself more sensibly in that case

 

[lobster]

Bloody hell you could have expressed yourself more sensibly in that case

sorry

 

[Cressi]

I did Economics and Finance at Uni and they openly discussed the 'underclass'.....I did ask what, who + why?. Well there are A1's....top of the upper class...B1,B2,B3...middle classes....then C's then the underclass.....who they explained was anyone acting illegally.......not just drug users....people buying stolen property....people selling smuggled goods.....so I asked well surely you can have A2's buying a hot rolex or something does that make them part of the underclass???? SIR? Technically it does but the census does not register that?

Think Lobster has listened like me to the way academics label people.

ps. I did pass by the skin of my ass.

 

[becky p]

THE UNDERCLASS Of CRIMINALS STAY IN THE UNDERCLASS sOME WHO MAKE MORE CASH AND INVEST IT WITH A BRAIN RISE???