How racist are you

[ovaltina]

It was an interesting programme to me, if not perfect by any means.

What was perhaps most telling is some that folks felt so uncomfortable and defensive about the whole idea, a belief that somehow they didn't need this learning. There's often a tacit acceptance that Britain is fairly sorted when it comes to racism, especially compared next to the more confrontational USA, but the urge to sweep things under the carpet and be more dismissive about the possibility that racism still seriously affects lives here is far more palpable.

I think that was the most valuable thing to come out of the programme. Not what it set out to achieve, but very informative nonetheless.

 

[Sadken]

Once again, I think you are not encompassing the full meaning and import of racism. It is not just about consciously thinking that other people are less than you. It is about the inherent structures and systems. It is about the way people are made to feel by the society they live in.

I think the same discrimination applies to poor white people though. The same structures exist, the same prejudices...trust me, they really do. Especially among barristers. The wankers.

 

[kabbes]

Yes, on top of race discrimination in this country we also have class discrimination. They are interwoven and their interaction generates a whole new wave of issues.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that if you are a black boy you're multiple times more likely to be stopped and searched than if you are a white boy, even when this is normalised for location.

 

[Sadken]

I think you're fooling yourself and belittling the experiences of other there Sadken. Yes, we don't have the NF thugs of my youth terrorising streets and whole areas, but you only have to look at the vast differences in educational and career achievement to suggest that things aren't as rosy underneath

Racism isn't just Klan style hoods and blantant discrimination - it's far more subtle than that.

Where and how am I belittling anyone? And, like I say, the social structure stops poor white people progressing too, doesn't it?

 

[Sadken]

Yes, on top of race discrimination in this country we also have class discrimination. They are interwoven and their interaction generates a whole new wave of issues.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that if you are a black boy you're multiple times more likely to be stopped and searched than if you are a white boy, even when this is normalised for location.

That I definitely do accept, but I think that is a totally different issue. We're talking about lay people, not the police who, I think we can all agree, are generally made up of the nuttiest kids in school who somehow managed to avoid getting sent down when they left.

 

[Louloubelle]

Because race is an issue that has always interested me because I've always had a fascination with other countries, cultures and it's something that I talk about a lot to a lot of people. For instance, I spend a LOT of my working life sat around for hours at court with people of all ethnicities and race is usually a good time filling conversation. The vast majority of immigrants I have spoken to have been overwhelmingly positive about their experience of the vast majority of UK people.

I'm not having a go but a lot of people will read what you just wrote and will understand it as a variation on "some of my best friends are black"

It seems like you are feeling defensive and perhaps the most useful thing at this point is to understand where that feeling is coming from and why you seem to feel the need to claim that most of the people in the UK are not racist when so many people, especially people in minorities who have suffered discrimination based on skin colour, see things differently

 

[Sadken]

I'm not having a go but a lot of people will read what you just write and will understand it as a variation on "some of my best friends are black"

Don't be a fucking idiot. So, because I have personal experience of coming into contact and discussing this specific issue under discussion at the moment with a lot of people from a lot of different ethnicities as part of my job and I repeat what they've said - which is directly relevant here - then I am a closet racist?

And saying "I'm not having a go" doesn't really work when you subsequently have a go.

 

[Louloubelle]

Don't be a fucking idiot. So, because I have personal experience of coming into contact and discussing this specific issue under discussion at the moment with a lot of people from a lot of different ethnicities as part of my job then I am a closet racist?

And saying "I'm not having a go" doesn't really work when you subsequently have a go.

I think you need to stop and think about what you are feeling and why

 

[Sadken]

I think you need to stop and think about what you are feeling and why

I am feeling angry and upset that you have uncovered my dark secret. Plum.

 

[tarannau]

Poor white people aren't often immediately apparent by site, or even by a quick view of a name though Ken. Neither would I try and extrapolate your experience of working in barrister circles as typical. Nobody's denying that the UK has difficulties with class, but there's an additional barrier with race too.

It's not just police either, it's everything from schooling to your local sports clubs and pub doormen. I'm pale, priveleged and respectable enough these days to not personally experience much overt nastiness, but it still doesn't stop me witnessing racism pretty much every day in some form or another.

 

[sim667]

gah i missed this......

4od time

 

[Sadken]

Poor white people aren't often immediately apparent by site, or even by a quick view of a name though Ken. Neither would I try and extrapolate your experience of working in barrister circles as typical. Nobody's denying that the UK has difficulties with class, but there's an additional barrier with race too.

It's not just police either, it's everything from schooling to your local sports clubs and pub doormen. I'm pale, priveleged and respectable enough these days to not personally experience much overt nastiness, but it still doesn't stop me witnessing racism pretty much every day in some form or another.

I was joking about barristers. Quite obviously, I thought.

Once again, I am NOT saying racism doesn't exist in the UK - I have NOT said that about 5 times now - but I am arguing against the idea that the majority of people in this country are racist. Nothing in my personal experience has led me to think that that is true, nor has anything in the experience of the people I have spoken to about racism in the UK. I know you can't base everything on subjective experiences but when the majority of those subjective experiences give the same story then I think that is getting close to being fair enough.

And doormen are just cunts, regardless of race. I would be very, very careful about using them as an example to be applied to the UK population at large.

Re: local sports clubs - golf clubs do seem to be quite racist from what I've seen and heard but they also seem to be very classist too. Like I say, I think it is just a certain strain of white superiority that allows those that subscribe to it to look down on white people as well as black, asian etc. That maybe doesn't make them racist so much as just plain old fucking idiots, to my mind.

 

[Louloubelle]

I am feeling angry and upset that you have uncovered my dark secret. Plum.

FWI, just to put things in context

I think that I am racist, just like everyone else is.

I am not a proud racist, I am not happy about my own racism, but by acknowledging it, I am at least less likely to be under its control and more likely to be able to examine it in myself if confronted about it. At least I hope so. I do the best I can which is all that any of us can do

I believe that we all have this thing called an unconscious, I also believe that we can be ruled by the more primitive aspects of ourselves, especially when we are stressed, frightened or in a large group of excited people.

Racism is just one of the powerful unconscious forces that all of us have and that none of us, IMO, is completely free of.

The collective denial that racism is endemic in our country is perhaps the most harmful thing to people on the receiving end. It can literally drive people mad.

 

[tarannau]

And I equally strongly disagree with you Sadken - the majority of Britain is racist imo, albeit mostly not in an overt or particularly vigorous way. I think you underplay the subtleties and pervasive nature of racism and preconceptions all too easily.

I'd also wager that the vast majority of my friends and acquaintances agree with me.I'm a mixed up Heinz 57 from a very mixed up town maybe, but I can only say what I see and hear every day

 

[Sadken]

Floating while intoxicated?

 

[strung out]

i wouldn't go so far as to say that the majority of this country is a screaming racist, but i would say that the majority of the people in this country overtly hold certain racial prejudices of one kind or another.

 

[Sadken]

And I equally strongly disagree with you Sadken - the majority of Britain is racist imo, albeit mostly not in an overt or particularly vigorous way. I think you underplay the subtleties and pervasive nature of racism and preconceptions all too easily.

I'd also wager that the vast majority of my friends and acquaintances agree with me.I'm a mixed up Heinz 57 from a very mixed up town maybe, but I can only say what I see and hear every day

So we have an explicitly racist political party - why are they outsiders if the majority of Britain is racist? The option is there to usher in a party that will do things the right way for the "majority" of people - why have they not taken up that option? Especially given the dissatisfaction with the mainstream parties?

 

[kabbes]

I think that the issue of whether the majority of people are or are not overtly racist is a completely irrelevant red herring. It misses the point by a country mile.

It's like saying that there is no problem with class because the majority of people are not overtly classist.

It's instructive that it always seems to be white people insisting... something. I'm never even sure what they are insisting, actually -- it seems to be a purely defensive reflex action. But whatever it is, it always seems to come down to "let's not talk about this, because, hey, we're all friends here aren't we?"

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think that I am racist, just like everyone else is.

I don't think it's useful to see racism like that. I do think that most white poeple in Britain are at least a little bit racist, often without realising it. But their racism manifests itself in very definite symptoms. You see those symptoms here on Urban frequently – people not seeing the problem with black people being stopped and searched more than white people, for instance. And yes, people do become very defensive about it.

 

[Sadken]

I'm not even saying don't talk about it - there clearly is a problem that still exists - just don't get hysterical and talk bullshit about it and claiming "the majority of people in the UK are racist" is made up bullshit that rests on self loathing flavoured jelly.

 

[Louloubelle]

So we have an explicitly racist political party - why are they outsiders if the majority of Britain is racist? The option is there to usher in a party that will do things the right way for the "majority" of people - why have they not taken up that option? Especially given the dissatisfaction with the mainstream parties?

You are equating over / proud racism with pervasive unconscious racism

They are not the same thing. Obviously

 

[kyser_soze]

I agree that quite a few posters completely missed the point of the excercise, but I would also point out that the excercise itself is deeply flawed if it's that easy to disrupt.

The results reminded me of the show that tried to recreate the Millgram(?) experiment with gaurds/prisoners - the guards refused to brutalise the prisoners, and the prisoners revolted. Here you have the same thing - many of the participants refuse the premise of the experiment and thus render it useless.

So you need to redesign the experiment. Seemples.

 

[tarannau]

And to be fair, I can't believe Ken's area is that peaceful and sorted either.

Jeepers, in the days when I was running pubs in Mitcham and other NF heartlands, a lot of the most unpleasant fuckwits did their 'white flight' thing out to Essex way.

Maybe people feel less qualified to badmouth folks in front of legal types, maybe he mixes in more positive and sheltered circles, but Ken's accounts don't tally with my life experience.

 

[Sadken]

You are equating over / proud racism with pervasive unconscious racism

They are not the same thing. Obviously

Right, so the majority of people in the UK are racist and don't even know it themselves? Isn't that just a mechanism to just allow you to make massive kneejerk generalisations the likes of which - if they were directed against, say, muslims - you would be up in arms about?

 

[kyser_soze]

IME the vast majority of people are a 'little bit racist' in the UK, regardless of their skin colour, and regardless of their experience of racism at the hands of someone else.

 

[Sadken]

And to be fair, I can't believe Ken's area is that peaceful and sorted either.

Jeepers, in the days when I was running pubs in Mitcham and other NF heartlands, a lot of the most unpleasant fuckwits did their 'white flight' thing out to Essex way.

Maybe people feel less qualified to badmouth folks in front of legal types, maybe he mixes in more positive and sheltered circles, but Ken's accounts don't tally with my life experience.

No, I grew up in Essex, I have a very strong estuary accent and I don't just talk to my clients. Sorry to disappoint the prejudice, but I know a lot of Essex white people who are every bit as anti racist as anyone on here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I agree that quite a few posters completely missed the point of the excercise, but I would also point out that the excercise itself is deeply flawed if it's that easy to disrupt.

The results reminded me of the show that tried to recreate the Millgram(?) experiment with gaurds/prisoners - the guards refused to brutalise the prisoners, and the prisoners revolted. Here you have the same thing - many of the participants refuse the premise of the experiment and thus render it useless.

So you need to redesign the experiment. Seemples.

I only saw about five minutes of it, but the problem to me seemed to be transferring from the US to the UK. Racism in the US and UK is similar, but also different.

 

[tarannau]

How is suggesting that racism in the UK is still widespread and pervasive self-loathing though Ken?

It's more an acceptance of the reality imo, not some kind of hand-wringing introspective behaviour.

 

[kabbes]

I'm not even saying don't talk about it - there clearly is a problem that still exists - just don't get hysterical and talk bullshit about it and claiming "the majority of people in the UK are racist" is made up bullshit that rests on self loathing flavoured jelly.

You're the one who brought up the issue of whether or not the majority are racist, at least in the conscious way that you mean.

I've said that it is a red herring from the beginning. We're talking about structures and institutions here, not who people will have a cup of tea with. And yet even when presented with an obvious, overt example -- the police -- you are keen to sweep it under the carpet by saying that "they were just the nutty kids". A joke, obviously, but revealing nonetheless.

 

[Sadken]

You're the one who brought up the issue of whether or not the majority are racist, at least in the conscious way that you mean.

I've said that it is a red herring from the beginning. We're talking about structures and institutions here, not who people will have a cup of tea with. And yet even when presented with an obvious, overt example -- the police -- you are keen to sweep it under the carpet by saying that "they were just the nutty kids". A joke, obviously, but revealing nonetheless.

No, I didn't bring it up.

I just don't think the example of the police can be applied to the people at large because most people at large aren't like the police. That's a very, very fucked up institution.