How much of our personality is free will?

[soulman]

Bingo.

Who's doing the programming?

 

[Flavour]

Other people!

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Quite right. The programme is an ever changing, ever evolving one. Our current experiences change and add to the codes which make our decisions, and our future experiences will continue to do that. This could be how therapy could work if we truly have no free will and our consciouness is an illusion.

But every one of the changes and evolutions happens because of what went on before. The sum total of what went on before, is what happens now. And the sum total of what happens now, will dictate, without the ability for variation, what will happen next.

You think you have free will because our minds can't simultaneously comprehend all of the factors which are causing any particular thing to happen.

Will you choose chai latte or a frappucino next time you go to Starbucks? If you could know all the antecedents, you'd know that the choice is already written. But because you dont' know all the antecedents, you have to go through the process of 'deciding'.

 

[fudgefactorfive]

Who's doing the programming?

Everything. Including yourself. You can think about your own thoughts.

 

[soulman]

Other people!

Who programmed you Flavour?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Who's doing the programming?

It's not something that anyone is doing. It's more like imprinting that happens based on the sum total of what is going on.

 

[soulman]

It's not something that anyone is doing. It's more like imprinting that happens based on the sum total of what is going on.

So it's based on the dominant social an economic theory of any given time?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So it's based on the dominant social an economic theory of any given time?

No, it's based on the interaction of everything that is happening.

Time moves forward, instant by instant. The totality of existence at this instant, is the foundation for what will inevitably happen in the next instant. Because we can't comprehend the totality of existence, we can't be aware of all the inputs that shape what will happen next, including what will happen to us. Therefore, we attempt to fit it into our perception of reality, by 'choosing'. But there is no real choice. Given the same set of circumstances, the same 'choice' would get made, every time.

 

[Flavour]

Who programmed you Flavour?

Everybody I've ever met, with the proportion of influence in the programming directly related to the amount of time spent with me. It's your parents who program you the most- if you act like them, it's just as much learned as it is genetic.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

So, is the dominent belief on this thread is that when it comes down to it, we have no free will?

Then if this is the case, hypothetically should we have blame?

 

[Agent Sparrow]

It's your parents who program you the most- if you act like them, it's just as much learned as it is genetic.

Actually I believe there's a lot of evidence that your peers might be more important than your parents.

Not a psychological text I know, but Crispy has just read Freakonomics and I think statistically it suggested that when it comes to personality development in kids, 50% is due to peer interaction, 25% parenting and 25% genetics/biological factors.

 

[soulman]

No, it's based on the interaction of everything that is happening.

Time moves forward, instant by instant. The totality of existence at this instant, is the foundation for what will inevitably happen in the next instant. Because we can't comprehend the totality of existence, we can't be aware of all the inputs that shape what will happen next, including what will happen to us. Therefore, we attempt to fit it into our perception of reality, by 'choosing'. But there is no real choice. Given the same set of circumstances, the same 'choice' would get made, every time.

See I think the same choice wouldn't get made with another set of the same circumstances. I don't recognise the old marxist determinist point of view Johnny. I think we make our own future and shit out our own history as we go about it. You got a list of capitalists hurting you and yours?

 

[tangerinedream]

Fuck genetics, it's boring. What's more interesting is how much of our behaviour is dictated by the pressure we feel to succeed or survive in the system we live in. That's the whole free will debate for me. not am I geneticly coded creature and is my life thus inevitable? What's the point in thinking like that? None as far as I can see.

In my opinion.

 

[samk]

So, is the dominent belief on this thread is that when it comes down to it, we have no free will?

Then if this is the case, hypothetically should we have blame?

It doesn't have to be true to be necessary for society to function

 

[Agent Sparrow]

See I think the same choice wouldn't get made with another set of the same circumstances. I don't recognise the old marxist determinist point of view Johnny. I think we make our own future and shit out our own history as we go about it.

And what makes you think this? I should point out I'm not being aggressively challenging there, I'm just asking if you have a rationale for that or whether it's just something you feel certain of.

I have to find at least a large part of me agreeing with Johnny on this one. I just wonder that in this world of "choices" which are already made for us, whether we have any to make at all (a few token ones for example).

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So, is the dominent belief on this thread is that when it comes down to it, we have no free will?

Then if this is the case, hypothetically should we have blame?

Hypothetically, no. But since we all labour under the illusion of free will, we also have blame.

Also, if what you're getting at is punishment etc, it might not be justifiable on moral grounds, but is on the grounds of expediency.

If you have someone programmed to rape and kill, then it might not be his fault, but it is in the interests of the greater common good that such a person be segregated from the general public.

 

[fudgefactorfive]

So, is the dominent belief on this thread is that when it comes down to it, we have no free will?

Then if this is the case, hypothetically should we have blame?

I think you still have to hold people responsible for things they do. That might or might not be the same things as "blame".

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

See I think the same choice wouldn't get made with another set of the same circumstances. I don't recognise the old marxist determinist point of view Johnny. I think we make our own future and shit out our own history as we go about it.

Every 'effect' in the world, has a 'cause'.

Why would that not apply to the human mind?

That being the case, the same 'cause' should produce the same 'effect', every time, just like it does with physics.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I just wonder that in this world of "choices" which are already made for us, whether we have any to make at all (a few token ones for example).

You have to make every choice, every minute of the day.

 

[chemn]

JC2 currently has to choose to draw breath?

 

[Agent Sparrow]

If you have someone programmed to rape and kill, then it might not be his fault, but it is in the interests of the greater common good that such a person be segregated from the general public.

It's when we get to this bit when I really start rebelling against the "we have no free will" argument however. We are undoubtedly the results of biological and perhaps more importantly social experiences, between which many individual subtle interactions take place (eading to vast differences in personality, a bit like the butterfly's wings which can hypothetically start storms on the other side of the world, However, two people can have very similar experiences yet act in totally different ways, e.g. the difference between the child who is hit who goes on to work in child rescue, or the one who becomes an abuser themselves. Surely some responsibility must be taken.

I know that sounds a bit contradictory but that's mainly because I can see arguments on both sides of the argument, so while I do largely think we are programmed products, I do feel at least that personal culpability must exist.

I guess also on a behavioural level, while there is social blame from others and guilt from the self that will act as a negative reinforcer both for the individual committing a bad behaviour, and for other people in the society around them.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

JC2 currently has to choose to draw breath?

Breathing is part of the autonomic nervous system, I think. You do it even when sleeping.

There are things that you do, that 'you' don't have to do. Like make your heart beat.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's when we get to this bit when I really start rebelling against the "we have no free will" argument however. We are undoubtedly the results of biological and perhaps more importantly social experiences, between which many individual subtle interactions take place (eading to vast differences in personality, a bit like the butterfly's wings which can hypothetically start storms on the other side of the world, However, two people can have very similar experiences yet act in totally different ways, e.g. the difference between the child who is hit who goes on to work in child rescue, or the one who becomes an abuser themselves. Surely some responsibility must be taken.
.

No, because each child or person brings different genetics, etc, that means each one might respond very differently to similar circumstances.

Apparently in some oriental cultures, such as japan, raising your eyebrows is viewed as being very rude.

So you might have a brit standing there with a japanese person, when someone walks up and raises his eyebrows. The brit wonders if something startling is going on, while the japanese guy punches the eyebrow-raiser in the mouth.

Similar stimulus/experience, wildly different reaction.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I know that sounds a bit contradictory but that's mainly because I can see arguments on both sides of the argument, so while I do largely think we are programmed products, I do feel at least that personal culpability must exist.

Why: because otherwise, the whole thing seems grossly unfair?

We can't tailor reality to conform with our conclusions.

 

[soulman]

And what makes you think this? I should point out I'm not being aggressively challenging there, I'm just asking if you have a rationale for that or whether it's just something you feel certain of.

I have to find at least a large part of me agreeing with Johnny on this one. I just wonder that in this world of "choices" which are already made for us, whether we have any to make at all (a few token ones for example).

no probs while I'm a liittle confused by your position, an that's all i take it as, I believe what i choose goes beyond anything the current rulers want for themselves. It's about what we want for ourselves, and when.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

No, because each child or person brings different genetics, etc, that means each one might respond very differently to similar circumstances.

Apparently in some oriental cultures, such as japan, raising your eyebrows is viewed as being very rude.

So you might have a brit standing there with a japanese person, when someone walks up and raises his eyebrows. The brit wonders if something startling is going on, while the japanese guy punches the eyebrow-raiser in the mouth.

Similar stimulus/experience, wildly different reaction.

Is your first sentence related to your second bit because surely the second part is mainly relating to differences in social programming, not genetics?

Johnny, consciousness does effect us in some ways, even though it doesn't offer the wide variety of choices that it might seem like it does. Another thing I remember learning in 2000 is a theory that it works as attention selector, bringing parts of our unconcsious mind (which leads to automatic action) into out consciousness where we can reflect on it and adapt it so we can exude what is, to all intents and purposes, what free will we have. As I said earlier though, it depends on whether some of those apparent decisions are weighted without us knowing.

 

[chemn]

Why: because otherwise, the whole thing seems grossly unfair?

We can't tailor reality to conform with our conclusions.

But isn't that what we all do? Live our own perception?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

But isn't that what we all do? Live our own perception?

Yeah.

I'm saying that just because you conclude that a particular system might be unfair, doesn't mean that that isn't the system that exists.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Is your first sentence related to your second bit because surely the second part is mainly relating to differences in social programming, not genetics?.

They're all part of the soup.

The second thing was about social programming, but if person one is autistic from birth, and the second is a boisterous extrovert from birth, they too might react totally differently to the same stimulus.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Are you asking if people choose to be who they are? That's ludicrous! People might be under the illusion that they are somehow in control of their own personality, but I think in reality the self is the only force unable of changing it(self)... Other people make you who you are. (IMO) (and genes)

Going right back to this early post before I go to bed, so are you suggesting that even after a long period of a) self exploration, or/and b) therapy facilitated by another person, people with personality disorders or at least severe personality traits which cause problems for them have no possibility of adapting? Or in the case of b) is that just the next step of other people making you who are (and in which case what about a)?)