How much land would you need to be semi-self sufficient

[dirtyfruit]

I don't have any data to back me up, but I suspect you could get a lot of food value from growing the "three sisters": corn, beans, and squash.

And are they then rotatable so you can have four plots leaving one fallow each year?

 

[DaRealSpoon]

I don't have any data to back me up, but I suspect you could get a lot of food value from growing the "three sisters": corn, beans, and squash.

Yeh, get the legumes in an fix up that nitrogen be-atch!!

 

[fogbat]

really? I'm not saying eat only potatoes, mind. that would be a bit boring and yes unhealthy, but what make spuds worse than other carbs?

Chips.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

And are they then rotatable so you can have four plots leaving one fallow each year?

You can rotate them around just fine. Beans add nutrients to the soil that corn removes. (do I have to use the word "be-atch"? )

The traditional way of growing them was in the same patch with successive plantings.

 

[Maggot]

Spaghetti doesn't grow on trees! It grows on vines:

http://www.fabulousfoods.com/index....troller=article&category_id=224&article=19943

So there!

 

[Brainaddict]

I don't have any data to back me up, but I suspect you could get a lot of food value from growing the "three sisters": corn, beans, and squash.

Depends on the climate too though doesn't it? I'm not sure they would do so well in the UK.

Land prices also depend on which continent you are on btw 11 acres with a small house would probably cost a few hundred thousand pounds here. And land without a house would almost never get planning permission to build one. Small country...

 

[gentlegreen]

I don't have any data to back me up, but I suspect you could get a lot of food value from growing the "three sisters": corn, beans, and squash.

I did that in my garden one year - had this sunny patch at the end of the greenhouse .... though I used ornamental strawberry corn and runner beans - I don't remember actually harvesting any squashes though - I may have used courgettes ..

But is it true you're supposed to bury some presumably inedible fish under th e corn ?

 

[madzone]

I'll talk to you about it now thanks very much. Just because I haven't 'tried it myself' doesn't mean I'm clueless

so ner!

E2a - Several possibilitie to the things you've mentioned tho ennit. Perhaps they've paid off their mortgage, through previous jobs. Perhaps they are excellent machinists and spin their own yarn hahaha.

And tea and coffee, well that goes back to the point I made about NEED, as opposed to WANT etc etc


btw - I do need tea

Don't just talk to me, talk to other people like me. John Seymour is seen as a kindly old buffooon by many smallholders. It's a noble principle and there's lots of useful advice in the book but it's not the be all and end all - no longer the bible of self sufficiency.

 

[mr steev]

Depends on the climate too though doesn't it? I'm not sure they would do so well in the UK.

Irrc the corn that is traditionally grown doesn't do so well in the uk. The corn that does grow well is not tall/strong enough to support beans growing up it.

The three do grow together well though and can be grown in one place or as part of a rotation. I'm growing courgettes amongst my corn up the plot this year to make more use of the space

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Depends on the climate too though doesn't it? I'm not sure they would do so well in the UK.

Land prices also depend on which continent you are on btw 11 acres with a small house would probably cost a few hundred thousand pounds here. And land without a house would almost never get planning permission to build one. Small country...

Everything depends on location. The traditional corn varieties are really long season... something like 120 days. Too long for your climate. You'd have to go with a shorter season variety.

It's really cheap to buy house/land in Nebraska. The difficulty is finding a job once you move to a rural area. You really have to bring your employment with you. (Unless you're a doctor or a nurse. There's alway demand for that.)

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I did that in my garden one year - had this sunny patch at the end of the greenhouse .... though I used ornamental strawberry corn and runner beans - I don't remember actually harvesting any squashes though - I may have used courgettes ..

But is it true you're supposed to bury some presumably inedible fish under th e corn ?

Yes, but I've never tried it. I've generally used composted manure.

 

[Herbsman.]

you need your eyes testing.

[silliness]

Your FACE needs testing

[/silliness]

 

[eoin_k]

animals are incredibly inefficient, I wouldn't have any if I was aiming for minimum land use. maybe some chickens for eggs though.

I'm not convinced by this - industrial livestock monoculture is inefficient but human beeings have been living with and exploiting animals for a long time and I think that continuing to do so might be more sustainable than the alternative:

In upland areas like the pennines keeping sheep seems to make sense. They provide a sustainable source of meat, textiles, and milk i.e. dietary fat and protein all year round.

In mediterranean regions goats have a clear role creating firebreaks between forests in the mountains and orchards/gardens in the valleys. As well as clearing land they are also a source of meat, cheese and textiles.

Pigs can be kept in woodland or orchards and fed partly on kitchen waste. Most European peasant households would have traditionally relied on pigs as a way of storing food during times of plenty for the lean period in the late winter early spring. They are also good for clearing land and are antoher source of textiles.

I didn't realise citing Seymour's book was going was going to get Madzone into such a tis. His book is a bit dated as is the whole concept of self sufficiency in my opinion. I'm familiar with the criticisms but I have also met people from the same community who seem pretty switched on about living off the land and sustainability... I know people who produce most of their food from alot less land than 5/6 of an acre per person. If Herbsman wanted to know how much land he would need to provide for all of his needs including rubber for his puncture repairs kit I'm sorry to have caused confusion.

 

[madzone]

I'm not convinced by this - industrial livestock monoculture is inefficient but human beeings have been living with and exploiting animals for a long time and I think that continuing to do so might be more sustainable than the alternative:

In upland areas like the pennines keeping sheep seems to make sense. They provide a sustainable source of meat, textiles, and milk i.e. dietary fat and protein all year round.

In mediterranean regions goats have a clear role creating firebreaks between forests in the mountains and orchards/gardens in the valleys. As well as clearing land they are also a source of meat, cheese and textiles.

Pigs can be kept in woodland or orchards and fed partly on kitchen waste. Most European peasant households would have traditionally relied on pigs as a way of storing food during times of plenty for the lean period in the late winter early spring. They are also good for clearing land and are antoher source of textiles.

I didn't realise citing Seymour's book was going was going to get Madzone into such a tis. His book is a bit dated as is the whole concept of self sufficiency in my opinion. I'm familiar with the criticisms but I have also met people from the same community who seem pretty switched on about living off the land and sustainability... I know people who produce most of their food from alot less land than 5/6 of an acre per person. If Herbsman wanted to know how much land he would need to provide for all of his needs including rubber for his puncture repairs kit I'm sorry to have caused confusion.

No, they can't. It's illegal.

And I'm not in a tis, I'm pointing out that a lot has changed since Seymour wrote his book. You can only be self sufficient in meat these days if you have some way of rasing the funds to pay someone licensed to slaughter them for a start.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

No, they can't. It's illegal.

And I'm not in a tis, I'm pointing out that a lot has changed since Seymour wrote his book. You can only be self sufficient in meat these days if you have some way of rasing the funds to pay someone licensed to slaughter them for a start.

As in a lot of things, its only illegal if you get caught.

BTW, what kind of police state are they running over there?

We have similar rules for livestock, but usually stock for home slaughter is exempt from some of the food saftely laws.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

No, they can't. It's illegal.

And I'm not in a tis, I'm pointing out that a lot has changed since Seymour wrote his book. You can only be self sufficient in meat these days if you have some way of rasing the funds to pay someone licensed to slaughter them for a start.

Bloody hell!
Does that also apply to small livestock like rabbits (reared, not wild) and poultry?

 

[madzone]

As in a lot of things, its only illegal if you get caught.

Well of course. It's entirely up to the individual if they want to follow the legislation or risk a spot check form defra and up to two yrs in prison. People need to be in possession of the full facts though and as the regs seem to change on a month to month basis regarding animal ID and what you can feed them etc I'm pionting out that what you glean from Seymour ion that respect isn't particularly valid.

BTW, what kind of police state are they running over there?

They're running the kind of place that is geared up for agribusiness and large scale intensive farms. Unfortunately a lot of the legislation ends up hitting small farmers as well.

We have similar rules for livestock, but usually stock for home slaughter is exempt from some of the food saftely laws.

You can only home slaughter if you have someone licensed come to the holding/farm. Only the person pulling the trigger of the captive bolt can eat the animal if they're unlicensed. Your partner and children aren't even allowed to eat it.

 

[madzone]

Bloody hell!
Does that also apply to small livestock like rabbits (reared, not wild) and poultry?

I don't know about rabbits but poultry are exempt. However, if a chicken dies it's 'supposed' to go to the knacker man. You're not allowed to bury it. You can bury a great dane on the land but not a day old chick

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I wonder how my one friend would cope. She's allergic to something the professional meat processors put on the meat. One bite of it and it's instant projectile vomiting. The only meat she can eat is that they slaughter on the farm. She'd have to go veggie if they couldn't raise their own.

(There's just a lot of us that raise some of our food because of allergies. I do.)

 

[madzone]

I wonder how my one friend would cope. She's allergic to something the professional meat processors put on the meat. One bite of it and it's instant projectile vomiting. The only meat she can eat is that they slaughter on the farm. She'd have to go veggie if they couldn't raise their own.

(There's just a lot of us that raise some of our food because of allergies. I do.)

She'd just have to have the animals killed somewhere licensed or by a mobile slaughterman (if she could find one - they're rarer then hens teeth these days) You can butcher it yourself.

 

[eoin_k]

No, they can't. It's illegal.

And I'm not in a tis, I'm pointing out that a lot has changed since Seymour wrote his book. You can only be self sufficient in meat these days if you have some way of rasing the funds to pay someone licensed to slaughter them for a start.

You are being so pedantic it is untrue. I was responding to Crispy's point that livestock aren't a sustainable or efficient use of land. This general point is somewhat broader than current Defra regulations. That is why I backed it up with reference to traditional practices across Europe including feeding pigs slops. I'm aware of the DEFRA regulations as I have worked at a city farm that keeps pigs and has a cafe - kitchen waste has to go to landfill while all the pigs feed has to be bought.

I'm aware of the criticisms people have made of Seymour. The little time that I have spent in the company of people who knew him well in Pembrokeshire made it clear that he had been part of a much wider community in which a lot of people contributed energy, skills and ideas to explore how we can live more sustainably. Which shows why the notion of self-sufficiency isn't quite right. The point is to create sustainable interdependent communites not self-sufficient households.

My reference to Seymour's book was to give Herbsman an idea of "How much land would you need to be semi-self sufficient". Check out your first reply to me to see why I thought you were in a bit of a tis.

 

[northernhord]

John Seymour originally reckoned that you would need 5 acres of land to grow your own food, Ive managed to grow 70% of yearly food on an allotment site and a small back garden so i reckon an acre is big enough.

 

[madzone]

You are being so pedantic it is untrue. I was responding to Crispy's point that livestock aren't a sustainable or efficient use of land. This general point is somewhat broader than current Defra regulations. That is why I backed it up with reference to traditional practices across Europe including feeding pigs slops. I'm aware of the DEFRA regulations as I have worked at a city farm that keeps pigs and has a cafe - kitchen waste has to go to landfill while all the pigs feed has to be bought.

I'm not being pedantic, I'm stating facts.

I'm aware of the criticisms people have made of Seymour. The little time that I have spent in the company of people who knew him well in Pembrokeshire made it clear that he had been part of a much wider community in which a lot of people contributed energy, skills and ideas to explore how we can live more sustainably. Which shows why the notion of self-sufficiency isn't quite right. The point is to create sustainable interdependent communites not self-sufficient households.

I was responding to DaRS's comments about the Book of Complete Self Sufficiency and if you're aware of the criticisms why are you getting your knickers in such a twist over me citing the same?

My reference to Seymour's book was to give Herbsman an idea of "How much land would you need to be semi-self sufficient". Check out your first reply to me to see why I thought you were in a bit of a tis.

But the book is called Complete Self Sufficiency. When I first became interested in living off the land I bought the old one and the updated one and found both to be quite overly romanticised.It quickly became apparent that the model JS aspires to is no longer particularly appropriate There are definitely some useful tips and ideas but (as I've already said to DaRS, it would be an interesting prject to see if someome could live it by the letter.

And you need to read a few more of my posts if you think that was me being in a tis

 

[madzone]

John Seymour originally reckoned that you would need 5 acres of land to grow your own food, Ive managed to grow 70% of yearly food on an allotment site and a small back garden so i reckon an acre is big enough.

Yeah, if you're a veggie who doesn't mind buying milk an acre is loads of room to grow veg and have some chooks, no probs.

 

[Funky_monks]

Yes, I am. It costs me every spare penny and means me and the ex are tied together a bit but I panic at the thought of losing it. It's an ace way of life but we have 5 acres and there's no way we could be self sufficient on it. John Seymour was extremely lucky with his army of students and was doing it in a time when it was much simpler.

Can you live on the proceeds from the holding alone? I was thinking about bidding on the lease for a mixed livestock smallholding and its 30 acres + cattle sheds.

Was worried it would be a bit small, even selling all the produce retail and adding value by processing etc. I already run a small smokery as part of where I work, and it would be easy to smoke, say bacon instead of fish. However, most of the people advising me have been 'big' farmers. The only one I know who has a 'smallholding' is a guy I went to school with and he has 70 acres, and manages to make a living on that by diversifying/environmental schemes as well as beef and sheep.

I may want to bend your ear about putting together a bid, too if it comes to it, thankyouplease.

 

[Idaho]

animals are incredibly inefficient, I wouldn't have any if I was aiming for minimum land use. maybe some chickens for eggs though.

Pigs can serve lots of functions on a bit of land. They can turn over and fertilize areas and get it ready for cultivation. Without animals on the land you will rely on buying in chemicals or animal waste. They can also be allowed to roam about near the chickens and will protect them a little.

And yes you can feed pigs on kitchen scraps - you just don't call them kitchen scraps. Say that you are specifically peeling veg to give the pigs the skin. I'm sure thousands of small holders with pigs do just that. Certain the few that I have met do. Who gives a shit what the regulations are? It's hardly as if urban is a cross-section of the most law-abiding group of people.

 

[Idaho]

Can you live on the proceeds from the holding alone? I was thinking about bidding on the lease for a mixed livestock smallholding and its 30 acres + cattle sheds.

Was worried it would be a bit small, even selling all the produce retail and adding value by processing etc. I already run a small smokery as part of where I work, and it would be easy to smoke, say bacon instead of fish. However, most of the people advising me have been 'big' farmers. The only one I know who has a 'smallholding' is a guy I went to school with and he has 70 acres, and manages to make a living on that by diversifying/environmental schemes as well as beef and sheep.

I may want to bend your ear about putting together a bid, too if it comes to it, thankyouplease.

I would guess it's all about whether you can secure a good market for your products.

 

[madzone]

Pigs can serve lots of functions on a bit of land. They can turn over and fertilize areas and get it ready for cultivation. Without animals on the land you will rely on buying in chemicals or animal waste. They can also be allowed to roam about near the chickens and will protect them a little.

And yes you can feed pigs on kitchen scraps - you just don't call them kitchen scraps. Say that you are specifically peeling veg to give the pigs the skin. I'm sure thousands of small holders with pigs do just that. Certain the few that I have met do. Who gives a shit what the regulations are? It's hardly as if urban is a cross-section of the most law-abiding group of people.

You can feed the peelings if you've peeled them in the field where the pigs are. As soon as the veg have been in the house they become seen as potentially contaminated. Defra do spot checks on pig keepers, it's up to the individual if they want to risk being caught. They also examine the contents of pigs stomach's at slaughter.

It's fine saying who gives a shit but people need to know what the legislation is so that they can make an informed decision about whether it's worth taking the risk on certain things.

 

[madzone]

Can you live on the proceeds from the holding alone? I was thinking about bidding on the lease for a mixed livestock smallholding and its 30 acres + cattle sheds.

Was worried it would be a bit small, even selling all the produce retail and adding value by processing etc. I already run a small smokery as part of where I work, and it would be easy to smoke, say bacon instead of fish. However, most of the people advising me have been 'big' farmers. The only one I know who has a 'smallholding' is a guy I went to school with and he has 70 acres, and manages to make a living on that by diversifying/environmental schemes as well as beef and sheep.

I may want to bend your ear about putting together a bid, too if it comes to it, thankyouplease.

Not from 5 acres, no. It costs a fortune and we don't make much back, if anything at all because 5 acres isn't enough space to have much surplus. It's just a very pretty money pit really

30+ acres is different though, obviously. I don't know many people who manage to live by the proceeds of their holding alone. Most people I know have one person who does the majority of the 'farming' while the other one goes out to work. Have you ever registered at Downsizer? There's people at all sorts of stages of living from their land and on various size plots and acreages. It would be well worth you joining there as there's a wealth of info.

You can pick my brains for whatever small amount of knowledge I have, of course and if you're ever down this way feel free to come and have a look round

 

[Idaho]

You can feed the peelings if you've peeled them in the field where the pigs are. As soon as the veg have been in the house they become seen as potentially contaminated. Defra do spot checks on pig keepers, it's up to the individual if they want to risk being caught. They also examine the contents of pigs stomach's at slaughter.

It's fine saying who gives a shit but people need to know what the legislation is so that they can make an informed decision about whether it's worth taking the risk on certain things.

You can prepare veg for pigs anywhere but your kitchen. It doesn't have to be in the field. There seem to be some rules about not composting if you have pigs, and only using closed composters with chickens.