How much are cyclists prepared to invest in lights ?

[mattie]

bicycles that come with kit built in are historically appallingly bad sellers in the UK and US... germany and holland on the other hand it'd probably go down a storm if they weren't all on hub dynamos.

Is this because they were designed with the wrong target market in mind, or because people are just not that keen on them as a concept?

(Suspect not an easy question to answer!)

 

[mauvais]

Bolt on lights are fine by me - I'd not want a bike with anything integrated because the pace of tech far outstrips the lifetime of frames or whatever you're integrating it into. LEDs and batteries change massively from year to year.

I've got a Hope Vision 4 front LED (£230 now) which is enough to ride confidently at about 30mph in the pitch black. I've also got a couple of Dinotte lights. One's on the helmet for more technical riding, which I don't use on road much because it's a bit blinding - narrow angle spotlight I think. The other's basically the same but a tail light, which is great in fog or shit weather - as bright as a car rear light, and casts a giant red beam behind me.

I've had no complaints about blinding anyone, except with the helmet light. I'll never know if they've ever saved my life but I imagine it might well have.

As for budget, just one winter commuting using these lights costs much less than the equivalent rail fare.

E2A: someone else's Hope light pic below - it's a bit brighter than reality but not much:

 

[Hocus Eye.]

I can't see bicycles with built in lights happening. It would be seen as 'not cool' by the leaders of cycle fashion much in the way mudguards have disappeared from bicycles.

In a similar way the number of cyclists I (almost) see riding without lights at night is frightening. Often they are wearing all dark or black clothes and hoodies.

 

[gentlegreen]

don't you worry that your lights may be dangerous? they sound bright!

Only for the lycra-clad who are wont to use me as a windbreak while waiting for an opportunity to whizz past

I'm contemplating putting a Laser warning label on the rear mudguard

http://stores.ebay.com/Light-of-Vic...hQQ_nkwZ33KmcdQQ_fsubZ3103118QQ_sidZ209416610

I am about to order a couple of cheap 5 LED rear lights for cyclist-only situations.

 

[mattie]

Bolt on lights are fine by me - I'd not want a bike with anything integrated because the pace of tech far outstrips the lifetime of frames or whatever you're integrating it into. LEDs change massively from year to year.

I've got a Hope Vision 4 front LED (£230 now) which is enough to ride confidently at about 30mph in the pitch black. I've also got a couple of Dinotte lights. One's on the helmet for more technical riding, which I don't use on road much because it's a bit blinding - narrow angle spotlight I think. The other's basically the same but a tail light, which is great in fog or shit weather - as bright as a car rear light, and casts a giant red beam behind me.

I've had no complaints about blinding anyone, except with the helmet light. I'll never know if they've ever saved my life but I imagine it might well have.

It's always possible to modularise, so that newer technologies can be swapped-in, but this of course assumes that the package size doesn't change too much.

I wonder what weight savings could be, as the bike components themselves could act as mounting and casing. Instead of the noddy gear indicators on shifters, have an LED assembly? A row of LEDs sunk in to the back of a saddle?

 

[mattie]

I can't see bicycles with built in lights happening. It would be seen as 'not cool' by the leaders of cycle fashion much in the way mudguards have disappeared from bicycles.

In a similar way the number of cyclists I (almost) see riding without lights at night is frightening. Often they are wearing all dark or black clothes and hoodies.

Depends how it's done, and who it's aimed at. Hoxton mullets may not go for it, I reckon a load of commuters might.

I'd be interested, if it was elegantly done. If someone simply mangled a few horse carriage lights into a frame and wired it up with household flex I wouldn't.

 

[mauvais]

You're left with very little that doesn't change though - just wiring and switches. I'm looking at this in the context of proper MTB lights but I don't see much advantage over strap-on battery packs and clamped lights. For a start I can swap my kit around so I can put the battery pack & light on the bars or on a helmet.

I would love to see indicators and maybe even brake lights, as signalling at night is probably the most dangerous move for me, but I don't think that's got mass market appeal.

 

[Boycey]

Is this because they were designed with the wrong target market in mind, or because people are just not that keen on them as a concept?

(Suspect not an easy question to answer!)

i've worked in a shop that has stocked gazzelle dutch bikes which are fully equipped and back in the day there were options from manufacturers that would mean that entry level bikes could be got with dynamo/mudguards ready fitted a la europe. none sell as well as a decent hybrid plus bolt on lights. i don't know what you mean by designed with the wrong target market in mind- they were designed for people who want a bike to commute on, most people who do this want to choose their own kit. it may be that the bicycle industries historic obsession with shite OE kit has resulted in a rejection of what trek/marin/specialized think you should be riding with.

 

[mattie]

(eta - reply to mauvais, sorry, clicked wrong button.)

I think you're right that it would be difficult in specialised areas, as the lights and batteries etc are matched and optimised to the required technology with casings designed to fit, rather than vice versa.

For general commuting I reckon it might work. There's some technology lock-in, granted, but packaging contraints would be a design problem that could be addressed.

I live in quite a hilly part of the world so I end up hard on brakes coming up to junctions, and I'm amazed how many drivers don't register that I can't brake and indicate at the same time....

 

[gentlegreen]

Fairing / nacelle, plus rear basket

And once you've got decent lights, you need a handlebar dipswitch.

 

[mattie]

i've worked in a shop that has stocked gazzelle dutch bikes which are fully equipped and back in the day there were options from manufacturers that would mean that entry level bikes could be got with dynamo/mudguards ready fitted a la europe. none sell as well as a decent hybrid plus bolt on lights. i don't know what you mean by designed with the wrong target market in mind- they were designed for people who want a bike to commute on, most people who do this want to choose their own kit. it may be that the bicycle industries historic obsession with shite OE kit has resulted in a rejection of what trek/marin/specialized think you should be riding with.

By target market I meant whether it's aimed at (loosely) beardie-wierdies or (for want of a better phrase) hipsters.

I know where I'd place gazelles on that scale.

eta: What I'm getting at is that it appears to me that it's an image problem with where the incumbent product is placed/focused rather than a fundamental issue with the concept.

 

[Sigmund Fraud]

I like the idea of designed-in lights, but suggest bb-driven wouldn't link power generation to when light needed (e.g. there would be no lights when free-wheeling down long hills!). OK for fixies perhaps?

Thats easily sorted - you put a capacitor in the system with a 50 second buffer. A lot of hub dynamo lights have this capability already.

Boycey - I hear what you're saying about sales. At some point we will go to integrated lights on utility bikes - It may depend on when the public demand them or (IMHO more likely) when BIKE INC deciedes to drop this science on us - but it will happen, its a question of 'when' not 'if'. In 1980 there was no demand for an aluminium framed commuter ...but crucially there was no supply either. Taiwan is very good at coming up with supply and as soon as they do demand seems to follow.

The more I think of it - all that wasted space inside frame tubes - whole sections could be used for other things; what about the seat tube being an integrated pump chamber and the saddle the piston to compress - hole on the back of the seat tube to attach a flexible hose and you never need carry a pump again. A section of the downtube could be used to house a gel battery charged up by my BB mounted dynamo, tools in another section...

 

[mattie]

Thats easily sorted - you put a capacitor in the system with a 50 second buffer. A lot of hub dynamo lights have this capability already.

Boycey - I hear what you're saying about sales. At some point we will go to integrated lights on utility bikes - It may depend on when the public demand them or (IMHO more likely) when BIKE INC deciedes to drop this science on us - but it will happen, its a question of 'when' not 'if'. In 1980 there was no demand for an aluminium framed commuter ...but crucially there was no supply either. Taiwan is very good at coming up with supply and as soon as they do demand seems to follow.

The more I think of it - all that wasted space inside frame tubes - whole sections could be used for other things; what about the seat tube being an integrated pump chamber and the saddle the piston to compress - hole on the back of the seat tube to attach a flexible hose and you never need carry a pump again. A section of the downtube could be used to house a gel battery charged up by my BB mounted dynamo, tools in another section...

I'm well on board with this, but reinforce that even a buffer still leaves the possibility of travel with no lights. With a hub-based system you can't end up in this situation.

I like the idea of integrated systems though, with the caveat that they mustn't impose too many compromises. Which, of course, is always an issue.

 

[dlx1]

I've got a Hope Vision 4 front LED (£230 now)

I been looking at them did see that wiggle had for 300 quid, way to much for me. did see thta burn time was only 3hrs on full.
mauvais you do much XC ?
Was also looking at a Hope 1 for 70 quid but still that 70 quid

*start at start of tread

Most of them round here don't seem to bother and dress head to toe in black as well.

ninja on bikes

 

[mauvais]

Yeah I do a lot of XC, and a fair bit at night. You don't really need em on full so they last a long time, plus XC at night is quite tiring IMO due to the increased concentration, so I wouldn't consider that a big problem.

Mine's broken at the moment - bad connection in the power lead - but it's being repaired by Hope and they're usually very good. I would definitely recommend the Vision 4 - had it for two years now.

Actually I bought my dad a Vision 1 and it's good but you could do better for the money I think.

 

[gentlegreen]

This thread has made me think about a front rack / basket to strap my permanent lights to...

 

[plurker]

what about the seat tube being an integrated pump chamber and the saddle the piston to compress - hole on the back of the seat tube to attach a flexible hose and you never need carry a pump again.

*votes for Sigmund to give up the day job and invent bike goodies*

 

[Boycey]

I like the idea of integrated systems though, with the caveat that they mustn't impose too many compromises. Which, of course, is always an issue.

unless you're aiming at the absolute top end of the market i think integrated stuff is a bad idea as by the time it hits a production line you'll find lots of the parts will be made cheaply and before the frame is at the end of it's life the pump will be ended. so you'll be riding around with a broken pump inside your frame :/

good design would help with these issues but i think the likelihood of an integrated frame/lights/pump meeting the quality of separates slim...

 

[Sigmund Fraud]

unless you're aiming at the absolute top end of the market i think integrated stuff is a bad idea as by the time it hits a production line you'll find lots of the parts will be made cheaply and before the frame is at the end of it's life the pump will be ended. so you'll be riding around with a broken pump inside your frame :/

good design would help with these issues but i think the likelihood of an integrated frame/lights/pump meeting the quality of separates slim...

You adopt the mercdes S-class approach - you develop the stuff and get it to market (albeit expensively). You then watch the trickle-down effect. Until integrated parts make bolt ons look like the silly anarcronisms they are nobody will go for it. But as soon as they bridge the affordability / quality gap its goodnight Vienna to Cateye and their ilk.

 

[mattie]

I'd have thought cateye et al would just supply system modules.

If it's truly modular bits should be replaceable/upgradeable as an when needed, but only if there's a common standard. And there can be a range of different standards for different needs - some for off-road, for example.

Out of interest, how successful is Shimano's flightdeck? I've never actually seen anyone use it, but suspect it's not an open standard and the added benefit (especially compared to cost) is pretty minimal.

 

[mauvais]

Why then aren't more car systems fully integrated or modular? As an example, people are still using separate GPS devices, even on expensive cars, and will be for some time since the technology is moving faster than OEM equipment can handle.

 

[gentlegreen]

Judging by today's ride home, most cyclists are only prepared to spend a few quid, some can't even afford batteries.

And those who are prepared to spend a few quid, just use them as "get out of my way" lights

My new light flashing button is probably waking a few of 'em up though - 4 watts' worth of 55 candela white LEDs in the mush.

My new medium beam lamp should be here by Friday ...

 

[mattie]

Why then aren't more car systems fully integrated or modular? As an example, people are still using separate GPS devices, even on expensive cars, and will be for some time since the technology is moving faster than OEM equipment can handle.

The car manufacturers have little to no motivation to do so, as they make so much from integrated systems.

Lights integrated into (for example) groupset shifters treads on no-one's toes.

 

[gentlegreen]

 

[Herbsman.]

JESUS WEPT

 

[gentlegreen]

It's difficult to catch these things on a camera.

Suffice to say they're too bright for unlit paths ... but in busy traffic they compare favourably with other vehicles and are probably as bright as ordinary lights from 180 degrees ...

I've tried to show the effectiveness of the front lamps in terms of seeing where you're going here :-

http://sites.google.com/site/gentlegreen/bike-light-photos

 

[mauvais]

You can't really tell from these but I'd hazard a guess that that's comparable to my lot.

Here's someone else's pictures of the Dinotte rear light:

 

[gentlegreen]

.

 

[gentlegreen]

Here's the red lamp photo colour-corrected :-

 

[gentlegreen]

I have to say, my current challenge is taming the beams of the domestic spotlamps, but I can see where I'm going in the woods without any trouble :-

that's 12 watts - all 3 front lamps ...