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How Hamas behave now ..

durruti02 said:
are you really incapable of reading .. or are you just stupid?

qoute D02 ".. i am entirely happy to accept he is scum of the highest order .. " clear now are we?? ;)

now what did i cnp that was incorrect?
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The words "Do as I say not as I do" could have been coined for you, durutti.
 
Spion said:
I don't know whether to laugh or weep when I think of how you must imagine what revelations you are posting.

As if we don't know. It is utterly irrelevant to the issue of whether or not Israel should get out of the territories
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No it is utterly irrelevent to you, because you made up your mind long ago and are not interested in anything that doesn't fit your view.

Oh and of course ViolentPanda consider anyone who says anything you don't like to hear as a dubious source.

Anything that exists outside your personal view of events is either irrelevent or lying. :rolleyes:
 
Can't see that Hamas's support of the woman in the West Bank shows any more than they are prioritising their factional conflict with Fatah over any qualms they may or may not have about women in politics.
 
JimW said:
Can't see that Hamas's support of the woman in the West Bank shows any more than they are prioritising their factional conflict with Fatah over any qualms they may or may not have about women in politics.
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Popular misconception, JimW
As the work of Birzeit University professor Islah Jad has demonstrated, the Islamist women's movement has played a major role in transforming Hamas' ideology about women, placing its demands at the center of internal debates, and in mobilizing women within Hamas and in society at large to play greater political and economic roles (sixty percent of students at Gaza's Islamic University, for example, are female).

Islamist women have challenged Western feminist discourses that they deemed irrelevant to their circumstances and needs. They have contended with contradictions in Islamist thinking about the role of women that mirrored the unresolved contradictions that had long plagued the declining secular nationalist movement. At the same time, these Islamist women activists engaged positively with many of the claims made by secular feminists, incorporating them into an ever-changing Islamist nationalist discourse. [9]

Islamist women have emerged as an important factor in Palestinian political life partly as a result of the demobilization of the secular nationalist women's movement as it became depoliticized, "NGOized," professionalized, and detached from its grassroots. [10]

"There are traditions here that say that a woman should take a secondary role -- that she should be at the back," said Jamila Shanti, one of Hamas' elected female members of the Palestinian Legislative Council, "But that is not Islam." Speaking after the January 2006 election, but before the EU, US and Israeli effort to destroy the Hamas government took hold, Shanti added, "Hamas will scrap many of these traditions. You will find women going out and participating." [11] Thus, the work of Islamist women, especially within Hamas, deserves to recognized, respected and engaged, not rendered invisible.
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There's no prohibition to political life for women in Islam.

This is where we have to look beyond caricatures and consider that for many of their adherents Islamist movements are attractive because they offer the hope of alternative forms of social organization that put the human being and the community, rather than the market and the consumer at the center of life.

Hamas' changing views on a long-term truce with Israel, on forms of resistance, and the role of women in society are examples of how an Islamist movement -- like any other social movement -- responds to the real circumstances of the society of which it is part.
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(quotes authored by secular American Palestinian Ali Abunimah from electronicintifada.net/v2/article9066.shtml)
 
Dravinian said:
No it is utterly irrelevent to you, because you made up your mind long ago and are not interested in anything that doesn't fit your view.

Oh and of course ViolentPanda consider anyone who says anything you don't like to hear as a dubious source.

Anything that exists outside your personal view of events is either irrelevent or lying. :rolleyes:
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But it is a dubious source.
 
Hamas are a deranged gang of murdering nutjobs who have grown up in response to the deranged gang of murdering nutjobs who run Israel

Teh you go Dur, well balanced
 
tangentlama said:
Popular misconception, JimW

There's no prohibition to political life for women in Islam.

(quotes authored by secular American Palestinian Ali Abunimah from electronicintifada.net/v2/article9066.shtml)
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Fair enough tangentlama, but I'm not making claims about Islam in general or even the Islamist movement as a whole; more concerned that in an understandable desire to counter Israeli propaganda we're bending over backwards to paint any and every act of a bourgeois nationalist party with a religious ideology as evidence they're more progressive than their politics justifies.
 
durruti02 said:
fool .. i am against nationalism .. i am for the destruction of israel .. but not by nationalism .. now answer my question please .. what is incorrect in what i have posted
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You reveal yourself here. You call for destruction of Israel. Not unlike this warmonger:
And while we’re at it, Hagee’s “support” for Israel is rooted in the notion that Hagee welcomes Israel’s destruction.
http://www.israelenews.com/view.asp?ID=2109
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While Hamas dropped it's call for the destruction of Israel in 2006.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/12/israel
 
hipipol said:
Hamas are a deranged gang of murdering nutjobs who have grown up in response to the deranged gang of murdering nutjobs who run Israel

Teh you go Dur, well balanced
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I'm not sure either of them are deranged. I think they're both acting rationally, as far as murdering nutjobs can, from their respective points of view. i.e.

Hamas: '... those bastards stole our lands and we can't win in a straight fight with them, but we can still find ways to make them pay that'll increase our local prestige and hence make us top dogs within our community'

Israel: ' ... we stole their lands (we just don't admit to it in public) and realistically, they're never going to stop giving us shit about it until they're all dead or utterly terrorised into submission'
 
In all "Middle eastern affairs" board here I see the same arguments recycling... zionism, anti zionism, anti semite, pro Hamas, anti Hamas etc etc etc..














YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT.



The point is that the STATE OF ISRAEL (not any ideology or religion or race or whatever but a STATE) denies the right of palestinian people for having a land of their own. If you believe that the reason of this attack was Hamas and their pathetic missiles, YOU ARE STILL MISSING THE POINT. Hamas was the perfect excuse that's why Israel supported Hamas in the first place.

Now.. as you may have noticed from my posts in urban I am an anarchist. Therefore as an anarchist, I do not support any state solution for the middle east, as I believe that states do not solve problems but create even more. I support though the right of the palestinian people (NOT HAMAS) for being free and being able to decide for themselves of how they want to organize their lifes. Therefore by supporting this, I actively want the ocupation forces of Israel to withdraw from Palestine and the Gaza strip, and a permanent truce to be signed by all so there will be peace in the area.

Only after this is done, and it is perfectly clear that peace is established in the area once and for all, we can then go on and discuss about how palestine should be organised, and I will then argue that the palestinian working class should take action and get rid of Hamas and Fatah, organisations that up to now only problems and corruption have given to the people, and organize themselves in direct democratic ways.

You understand though, that this conversation is not really valid now, when there is a big occupation force inside Gaza strip, and warfare is possible that will start again pretty soon...
 
durruti02 said:
you as well ignoring the message for the messenger?

ok simple questions simple answers

is what is written true or falkse?
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I read the "messages". They shared a common attribute in that they were "spin", using selective quotation, to present a particular viewpoint. Did you check out any of the primary source material used in those articles, or did you just take the journo's version as read?

You can't quantify that stuff as "true" or "false" until you check out the source and compare the one with the other.
 
Dravinian said:
No it is utterly irrelevent to you, because you made up your mind long ago and are not interested in anything that doesn't fit your view.

Oh and of course ViolentPanda consider anyone who says anything you don't like to hear as a dubious source.

Anything that exists outside your personal view of events is either irrelevent or lying. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Fuck off, fong.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
I'm not sure either of them are deranged. I think they're both acting rationally, as far as murdering nutjobs can, from their respective points of view. i.e.

Hamas: '... those bastards stole our lands and we can't win in a straight fight with them, but we can still find ways to make them pay that'll increase our local prestige and hence make us top dogs within our community'

Israel: ' ... we stole their lands (we just don't admit to it in public) and realistically, they're never going to stop giving us shit about it until they're all dead or utterly terrorised into submission'
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I think 60 years of killing will pretty much make anyone deranged - I would agree that from both of their perspectives their actions "appear" logical but by any objective measure they are not
Hamas knows that a few fucking poxy rockets can only annoy the the Israelis, it will kiil the odd unlucky soul who happens to be standing in the wrong place when they fall but it has already been established that approximately three times as many people died on Israels roads during the same time period as Israelis died - civilian and military - as a result of entire Gaza invasion but they feel the must DO something
Isreal knows that short of killing every Palestinian they cant get the "peace" they claim to want by bombing the shit out of them every so often - then basically treating them as sub-human in between.
None of it is sane
 
frogwoman said:
the main priority has got to be stopping Israel's war crimes, not how working class an organisation is, surely?
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frogwoman please .. people have been trying and failing to stop israels crimes for 60 years .. note FAILING .. so imho a full debate IS entirely legitimate
 
ViolentPanda said:
I read the "messages". They shared a common attribute in that they were "spin", using selective quotation, to present a particular viewpoint. Did you check out any of the primary source material used in those articles, or did you just take the journo's version as read?

You can't quantify that stuff as "true" or "false" until you check out the source and compare the one with the other.
Click to expand...
yes i am sure some were spin .. others were not .. now were there lies in there?
 
durruti02 said:
frogwoman please .. people have been trying and failing to stop israels crimes for 60 years .. note FAILING .. so imho a full debate IS entirely legitimate
Click to expand...

The decision makers/power holders across the globe have weighed everything up in the balance and have allowed Israel to continue on its course - for their own benefit. Not for Israel's benefit. Not for the Palestinians' benefit. If Israel ceases to provide a benefit to the power holders, they'll leave Israel high and dry. Israel knows this.
 
Dimitris said:
In all "Middle eastern affairs" board here I see the same arguments recycling... zionism, anti zionism, anti semite, pro Hamas, anti Hamas etc etc etc..














YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT.



The point is that the STATE OF ISRAEL (not any ideology or religion or race or whatever but a STATE) denies the right of palestinian people for having a land of their own. If you believe that the reason of this attack was Hamas and their pathetic missiles, YOU ARE STILL MISSING THE POINT. Hamas was the perfect excuse that's why Israel supported Hamas in the first place.

Now.. as you may have noticed from my posts in urban I am an anarchist. Therefore as an anarchist, I do not support any state solution for the middle east, as I believe that states do not solve problems but create even more. I support though the right of the palestinian people (NOT HAMAS) for being free and being able to decide for themselves of how they want to organize their lifes. Therefore by supporting this, I actively want the ocupation forces of Israel to withdraw from Palestine and the Gaza strip, and a permanent truce to be signed by all so there will be peace in the area.

Only after this is done, and it is perfectly clear that peace is established in the area once and for all, we can then go on and discuss about how palestine should be organised, and I will then argue that the palestinian working class should take action and get rid of Hamas and Fatah, organisations that up to now only problems and corruption have given to the people, and organize themselves in direct democratic ways.

You understand though, that this conversation is not really valid now, when there is a big occupation force inside Gaza strip, and warfare is possible that will start again pretty soon...
Click to expand...

^^^ not bad, ironically veers into stalinist stages theory at one point, but otherwise this is mostly an anarchist perspective :)
 
In Bloom said:
Indeed it is. So why do you waste so much time and energy defending Hamas from any and all political criticism?
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I don't defend them from 'any and all political criticism'. That's utter bullshit, and I'd like you to show me where I have ever done that

I do, however, spend a lot of time correcting lies that form the body of propaganda which attempts to demonise them. A by product of which is that we can gain a better understanding of them.

I also do this on the basis that the beliefs of Hamas are absolutely irrelevant to my belief that Israel should cease its occupation and attacks on Palestinians.
 
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