How Hamas behave now ..

[durruti02]

i'm not ignoring it, i am pointing out that if the phrase 'main allies' means anything it means practical support. I'm glad you finally accept this. if you want to stick solely to philosophical support then the egyptian MB are far more significant than Sudan.


time and place durruti, time and place. when that criticism is used to mitigate the israeli onslaught - to any extent at all - it is wholly reprehensible

1) i stated that from the very begining that sudan were NOT a major practical ally .. the allegation is about ideology .. so it is simply not a case of 'finally accept[ing]'

2) the eygyptian MB yes are the daddys of the MB .. but they are NOT in govt ok??

3) time and place? .. yes this is understandable criticism .. but why have the critics of the attacks on hamas not just say that from the off instead of relying on smear ( zionist likud right wing etc etc) and association ( cia zionism likud etc etc)

BUT i think this is a incorrect criticism .. i have been aware of palestine increasingly since the early 7ts .. my eldest sister was involved in palestinian solidarity right back then .. and i have seen the tragedy of nationalism and of asymetric military strategy repeat itself over and over and now with hamas the possibilities of peace are even more limited .. it has to be said that EVEN IN THE MIDST OF THIS ATTACK that the strategy of hamas can and will not help the palestinians .. and bb this is a political debating forum in london .. you can not fault me with my attendance of demos ( 4 during that period) nor ideological opposition to zionism ( i am absolutely against ALL nationalism) nor israel, whose creation was idiotic fromt eh ver beginning - so why am i not entitled to criticise a strategy just as others are to defend that ( imho failed ) strategy?

 

[belboid]

so it is simply not a case of 'finally accept[ing]'

gee, i wonder where i got the idea from for using that turn of phrase

2) the eygyptian MB yes are the daddys of the MB .. but they are NOT in govt ok??

irrelevant if we are talking ideological influence, which, it seems, we are

 

[ViolentPanda]

Russophile that I am, I'd actually seriously consider living there if it wasn't so remote and had more job opportunities.

You should opt for the land of the pickled carrot and Nestor Makhno instead, then.

 

[frogwoman]

Ukraine? I might actually.

 

[durruti02]

gee, i wonder where i got the idea from for using that turn of phrase


irrelevant if we are talking ideological influence, which, it seems, we are

so what can we agree on BB? .. i think you agree with the below .. i do

1)that hamas and sudan are both are MB
2)that iran and syria supply more practical support than syria
3)that the egyptian MB are the key element in hamas genesis
4) that only in sudan and gaza do MB have any sort of power
5) that sudan have supported hamas in the media and hamas have supportted sudan re accusation re darfur

 

[Spion]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[laptop]

It is starting to whiff like conspiracy-proving, isn't it? "If only we can find the smoking gun..."


The Muslim Brotherhood is more of a movement, a current of theological development, than it is an organisation.

I suggested to someone who did his PhD on the Brotherhood, at the Vatican university, that they were basically the Islamic equivalent of the early Methodists. He looked startled, then agreed

 

[nino_savatte]

so what can we agree on BB? .. i think you agree with the below .. i do

1)that hamas and sudan are both are MB
2)that iran and syria supply more practical support than syria
3)that the egyptian MB are the key element in hamas genesis
4) that only in sudan and gaza do MB have any sort of power
5) that sudan have supported hamas in the media and hamas have supportted sudan re accusation re darfur

Your second point makes no sense.

Furthermore, Egypt has been under ostensible military rule since Nasser.

Your obsession with the Muslim Brotherhood is becoming really tedious; it is a pointless distraction.

 

[tangentlama]

It is starting to whiff like conspiracy-proving, isn't it? "If only we can find the smoking gun..."


The Muslim Brotherhood is more of a movement, a current of theological development, than it is an organisation.

I suggested to someone who did his PhD on the Brotherhood, at the Vatican university, that they were basically the Islamic equivalent of the early Methodists. He looked startled, then agreed

Didn't the precursors of the Hamas eschew violence and concentrate on social welfare & spiritual issues ?

 

[ViolentPanda]

so what can we agree on BB? .. i think you agree with the below .. i do

That's because, on the evidence of your multitudinous HAMAS threads, you're a fucking simpleton.

Let's deal with your points (which, yes I know, have already been dealt with, but you appear to have a problem absorbing anything that contradicts your simplistic analysis, so here we go again):

1)that hamas and sudan are both are MB

Except that, as you've previously accepted, they're not "both MB", but rather that both HAMAS and the regime in power in Sudan contain MB elements (just as, I suspect, they also contain elements aligned to "socialism" of one form or another), along with other competing ideologies.

2)that iran and syria supply more practical support than syria

This sentence doesn't even make sense.

3)that the egyptian MB are the key element in hamas genesis

The "Egyptian MB" are the key element in the genesis of any of their offshoots, successor organisations or other offspring.
However (and it's a big "however"), there's this little thing called evolution that happens to things like ideologies. It's "event-driven" (as Harold MacMillan could tell you), and it means that the child is never a facsimile of the parent, but a new creature entirely.

4) that only in sudan and gaza do MB have any sort of power

Except that they don't have "power". They are unable, for example to create policy in either situation. What they can do, and do do, is exert influence, which is a whole different ballgame to "having power".

5) that sudan have supported hamas in the media and hamas have supportted sudan re accusation re darfur

Except that it isn't as simple as that, is it?

 

[belboid]

I'd actually pretty much accept durruti's 5 points (assuming that number 2 should read 'Sudan' at the end). But all together they don't really amount to much. they do tho point out very clearly that the original statement that Sudan are Hamas' main ally are a nonsense, and if the Sudanese government were all put up against a wall and shot tomorrow, ity would make virtually no difference whatsoever to Hamas.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Didn't the precursors of the Hamas eschew violence and concentrate on social welfare & spiritual issues ?

In terms of violence as policy, yes, although individual members (as individual members are wont to do) occasionally "acted alone" over some issues.

 

[durruti02]

I'd actually pretty much accept durruti's 5 points (assuming that number 2 should read 'Sudan' at the end). But all together they don't really amount to much. they do tho point out very clearly that the original statement that Sudan are Hamas' main ally are a nonsense, and if the Sudanese government were all put up against a wall and shot tomorrow, ity would make virtually no difference whatsoever to Hamas.

 

[agricola]

Bumped because of the very quietly reported news that the Israelis bombed a convoy in Sudan (in January), that they claim was heading for Gaza.

 

[Spion]

. . . which potentially underlines the pragmatic concerns which underpin any notion of ideological identity between Hamas and the Sudanese leadership

 

[laptop]

. . . which potentially underlines the pragmatic concerns which underpin any notion of ideological identity between Hamas and the Sudanese leadership

...but is also potentially a lethal intelligence error due to the presumption of such an identity...

 

[Spion]

Very true

 

[ViolentPanda]

Bumped because of the very quietly reported news that the Israelis bombed a convoy in Sudan (in January), that they claim was heading for Gaza.

Interesting, as much for the implied distrust by Israel of the Egyptian regime as for anything else. It should be fairly obvious to most people by now that the Egyptian state will go to great lengths to avoid upsetting either the state of Israel or the US, given the economic dependency issues involved. It's almost certain that Egypt would have intercepted any "arms shipment".

 

[Spion]

Interesting, as much for the implied distrust by Israel of the Egyptian regime as for anything else. It should be fairly obvious to most people by now that the Egyptian state will go to great lengths to avoid upsetting either the state of Israel or the US, given the economic dependency issues involved. It's almost certain that Egypt would have intercepted any "arms shipment".

But can all ranks be trusted to toe the 'regime' line? The Egyptian armed forces are pretty corrupt, and with good reason given the shocking levels of pay (which is just a few quid a month for peasant/urban poor conscripts). I wouldn't be surprised if there were covert political opposition to the regime in the middle ranks

 

[durruti02]

Bumped because of the very quietly reported news that the Israelis bombed a convoy in Sudan (in January), that they claim was heading for Gaza.

it is hard to get anything 'straight' from that article .. it is full of unsubstantiated gossip almost .. is it a smear attempt? ( then why not release news earlier?) .. hard to tell ..

another link
..
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/26/sudan-airstrike-mystery/?ref=africa

 

[nino_savatte]

"Unsubstantiated gossip"?

For starters, that's a tautology and secondly, you've just displayed another example of your characteristic lack of understanding.

Sudan, bad...Hamas, bad...therefore anyone who helps the Gazans is also bad.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But can all ranks be trusted to toe the 'regime' line? The Egyptian armed forces are pretty corrupt, and with good reason given the shocking levels of pay (which is just a few quid a month for peasant/urban poor conscripts). I wouldn't be surprised if there were covert political opposition to the regime in the middle ranks

The Egyptians model their military on the Soviet system. Any "sensitive" work is done by Interior Ministry troops, who are career soldiers rather than conscripts. The Interior Ministry is all too aware of who really pays their wages.

 

[Spion]

The Egyptians model their military on the Soviet system. Any "sensitive" work is done by Interior Ministry troops, who are career soldiers rather than conscripts. The Interior Ministry is all too aware of who really pays their wages.

So, you're saying you think it is impossible for arms to travel across Egypt to Gaza? Personally I'm not convinced and stand to my point about corruption/political sympathy in some strata of the Egyptian state's forces.

PS: The vast bulk of the Interior Ministry's Central Security Force is conscript, AFAIK. Not that that is the sole thing we should consider here as there is corruption right up through the ranks, AFAIK

 

[agricola]

Bumped because of this BBC article, reporting that Sudan have claimed 119 people died.