How Fascist Were Plaid Cymru?

[phildwyer]

Not to suggest that any current members would describe themselves as such, but historically Plaid Cymru has been associated with right-wing nationalism, racism, and even fascism. Saunders Lewis, the Hitler-sympathizer, being the best-known example. This always prevented me from voting for them (before I gave up voting altogether), although I did like Ellis-Thomas and the Marxist wing of the party in the '80's. Anyone got any views or info on how deep the racist and fascist roots lie in PC? My guess would be that they are largely confined to the Gog/Crachach/linguistic fanatics, but how influential is that branch on the party's ideology? Would it even be worth starting a new party, explicitly dedicated to socialism from the outset, to rid Welsh nationalism of its embarrassing historical baggage?

 

[Sorry.]

there are a wide variety of dedicated socialist and welsh republican parties already in existence, so starting a new one doesn't seem terribly necessary.

 

[phildwyer]

No-one votes for them though, unlike Plaid. A split in PC would seem to have more potential, IMHO.

 

[chilango]

When I was a member of Plaid (years ago) i never saw ANY evidence of any sort of fascist current or influence. saunders lewis was also iirc a Catholic. you can`t exactly find a catholic influence on plaid either.

A red herring i think.

 

[pilchardman]

Although I'm no expert, it would seem from my understanding that PC is a social democratic party, with an overtly socialist wing. To be fair, I don't think it will do to single out an individual member from history and suggest he or she represented any particular current in the party. All parties and organisations have had members they ended up not being proud of.

 

[phildwyer]

Although I'm no expert, it would seem from my understanding that PC is a social democratic party, with an overtly socialist wing. To be fair, I don't think it will do to single out an individual member from history and suggest he or she represented any particular current in the party. All parties and organisations have had members they ended up not being proud of.

Saunders Lewis was hardly a mere "individual member from history." He was the founder of Plaid Cymru, and its second President. He was easily the biggest singly influence on PC. And he was, in all but name, a Fascist. I believe that many current members of PC are racial purists too. That is why, despite having considerable sympathy for Welsh nationalism, I am unable to support the only viable Welsh nationalist party. I'd imagine there are many, many others in the same position.

 

[chilango]

He was easily the biggest singly influence on PC.

Nonsense.

I believe that many current members of PC are racial purists too.

What`s your evidence?

I never met any who were "racial purists".

Your statements really don`t square with my experience of being a member, or with living in Plaid run areas.

 

[phildwyer]

Nonsense.



What`s your evidence?

I never met any who were "racial purists".

Your statements really don`t square with my experience of being a member, or with living in Plaid run areas.

Well, you clearly know more about this than me. But for a non-member, Lewis is certainly the best-known figure in the early history of PC. How would you evaluate his influence? Also, I've met lots of nationalists who go on about how they hate the English, resent them moving to Wales, and think they should be kicked out. So, I'm sure, have you. Sounds like racial purism to me.

 

[pilchardman]

He was easily the biggest singly influence on PC. And he was, in all but name, a Fascist. I believe that many current members of PC are racial purists too.

I bow to your superior knowledge. As I say, I'm no expert, and can only go on what I see as an outside observer. I've not studied the party's history, but I have read Ellis-Thomas and some other stuff during the 1980s.

 

[ernestolynch]

Philwyer - you've been living in America too long. To try and slur Plaid as some 'racial fascist partei' is an Anglo-Saxon tactic.

 

[chilango]

Well, you clearly know more about this than me. But for a non-member, Lewis is certainly the best-known figure in the early history of PC. How would you evaluate his influence? Also, I've met lots of nationalists who go on about how they hate the English, resent them moving to Wales, and think they should be kicked out. So, I'm sure, have you. Sounds like racial purism to me.

"kicking the English out" as you crudely put it is not a racial issue. at all (despite Ernesto´s Saxophobia!) it is primarily linguistic. And is usually presented in terms of anticolonialism and national liberation. If you think all those movements are "racial purists" then fine, but you`re wrong.

Saunders Lewis influence is not all that great, teh party initially looked more towards Ireland and Scotland for examples of nationalist parties and later to europe (to the basques, bretons, catalans etc.)

Plaid members and other Welsh nats have always been, and still are involved in struggles against genuinely fascist groups such as the BNP and NF.

If you want to look at Fascist Welsh nats then you should look at a tiny group known as the Welsh Distributist Movement (if they still exist) who are an offshoot of the International Third Position. They have NO influence even on the fringes of the nationalist movement.

...and occasionally the odd individual in the fringe groups has been dodgy, but this applies to any political movement. Even avowed revolutionary socialists get the odd fascist nutcase joining from time to time.

Hope that helps.

 

[phildwyer]

"kicking the English out" as you crudely put it is not a racial issue. at all (despite Ernesto´s Saxophobia!) it is primarily linguistic. And is usually presented in terms of anticolonialism and national liberation. If you think all those movements are "racial purists" then fine, but you`re wrong.

Its not clear from your post whether you believe that the English living in Wales should be kicked out, forced to learn Welsh, or what. (Of course, they already are forced to learn Welsh if they attend state schools.) Is this really fair? I'm from Cardiff, a very multi-racial city. What about the Somalis and Pakistanis who live there? Should they be kicked out, or forced to learn Welsh too? (Again, their children are already forced to learn Welsh in school.) If English politicians insisted that immigrants be forced to learn English, they'd be branded as racist, and rightly so. As I say, I'm sympathetic to Welsh independence, but only if it is accepted that Wales is a multi-ethnic and multi-lingual nation, where no one ethnicity or language has any legal predominance over the others.

The rest of your post was indeed helpful, thanks.

 

[chilango]

Its not clear from your post whether you believe that the English living in Wales should be kicked out, forced to learn Welsh, or what. (Of course, they already are forced to learn Welsh if they attend state schools.) Is this really fair? I'm from Cardiff, a very multi-racial city. What about the Somalis and Pakistanis who live there? Should they be kicked out, or forced to learn Welsh too? (Again, their children are already forced to learn Welsh in school.) If English politicians insisted that immigrants be forced to learn English, they'd be branded as racist, and rightly so. As I say, I'm sympathetic to Welsh independence, but only if it is accepted that Wales is a multi-ethnic and multi-lingual nation, where no one ethnicity or language has any legal predominance over the others.

The rest of your post was indeed helpful, thanks.

Personally I don`t give a damn where someone is from, or what their nationality is.

I certainly don`t care what their skin colour is.

I do think people who move to Wales, especially in Welsh speaking areas, should show some respect to the communities they are joing and learn the Welsh language. l live in Mexico, so naturally I`m learning spanish, plus what I can of Maya and Nahuatl.

Only English speakers ever seem to have a problem with this principle.

 

[majorleague]

To be fair, I don't think it will do to single out an individual member from history and suggest he or she represented any particular current in the party. .

It wasn't just one individual, and was an actual current in the party, so I've read. Founder member, Ambrose Bebb, was a passionate and open fascist, eg.

Present day Plaid is certainly no fascist or even right wing party, but people's perception, and the historical-record/memory are crucial for Plaid's prospects of creating mass movement for socialist gov in Wales.

Personally, I think they are doomed and well out of date. The majority of the people of Wales think so too it seems.

 

[phildwyer]

I do think people who move to Wales, especially in Welsh speaking areas, should show some respect to the communities they are joing and learn the Welsh language.

Maybe they *should* do so, but the question is whether they should be *forced* to do so, as their children currently are. I don't think so, any more than I think a Welsh speaker who moves to Cardiff should be forced to speak English (as the logic of your argument suggests). I also think that their focus on the language is the main reason why Plaid will never enjoy the support of most Welsh people. A truly socialist party, freed from its neo-fascist past, and proudly multi-lingual in orientation, would stand a much better chance.

 

[majorleague]

I also think that their focus on the language is the main reason why Plaid will never enjoy the support of most Welsh people. A truly socialist party, freed from its neo-fascist past, and proudly multi-lingual in orientation, would stand a much better chance.

See!

 

[redsquirrel]

Maybe they *should* do so, but the question is whether they should be *forced* to do so, as their children currently are.

Like when the French force english kids who go to school in France to learn French? Or the fact that kids going to school in England are forced to learn English?

 

[phildwyer]

Like when the French force english kids who go to school in France to learn French? Or the fact that kids going to school in England are forced to learn English?

The obvious difference is that in France, the language of instruction in school is French, and in England its English. So in order to attend school in those countries (which is compulsory) students must learn those languages. But in most of Wales, the main language of instruction is English, so it is not necessary for children to learn Welsh in order to attend. They are, however, forced to learn Welsh for the ideological reasons of dodgy, facist-inspired Welsh nationalists.

 

[Karac]

Any evidence that Saunders Lewis was a "Hitler lover" or a facsist Phil?

 

[chilango]

The obvious difference is that in France, the language of instruction in school is French, and in England its English. So in order to attend school in those countries (which is compulsory) students must learn those languages. But in most of Wales, the main language of instruction is English, so it is not necessary for children to learn Welsh in order to attend. They are, however, forced to learn Welsh for the ideological reasons of dodgy, facist-inspired Welsh nationalists.

that`s a factually incorrect statement.

Geographically most of wales has welsh language or bilingual education.

Children are "forced" to do a lot of things in school. are you oppposed to these too?

 

[steeplejack]

They are, however, forced to learn Welsh for the ideological reasons of dodgy, facist-inspired Welsh nationalists.

errr...or as a result of the Welsh Language Acts 1967 & 1993, legislated for respectively by a Labour and a Tory government. Which fascist inspired Welsh nationalists were in those governemnts, Phil?

If you're going to complain bitterly about Welsh language education at least do so from a factual basis.

 

[steeplejack]

Where's your evidence that Saunders lewis was a Hitler lover, Phil?

or that the early membership of Plaid Cymru were dominated by extreme right wing types?

I'd be interested to see it.

 

[redsquirrel]

TThey are, however, forced to learn Welsh for the ideological reasons of dodgy, facist-inspired Welsh nationalists.

besides as chilago and steeplejack point out you're wrong (as usual).

 

[steeplejack]

A truly socialist party, freed from its neo-fascist past, and proudly multi-lingual in orientation, would stand a much better chance.

"Neo-Fascist"? What fresh arsery is this?

Are you saying now that Plaid Cymru was a fascist party well after 1945? Either you are, or you're pretentiously invoking the term 'neo-fascist' to claim an 'authority' your pisspoor arguments don't come close to deserving.

 

[steeplejack]

It wasn't just one individual, and was an actual current in the party, so I've read. Founder member, Ambrose Bebb, was a passionate and open fascist, eg.

Rubbish. Complete and utter balls.

What evidence do you have for this?

 

[phildwyer]

Where's your evidence that Saunders lewis was a Hitler lover, Phil?

or that the early membership of Plaid Cymru were dominated by extreme right wing types?

I'd be interested to see it.

Buggered if I know why I should do your homework for you, but this exchqnge fro, Hqnsqrd nqy give you so,e ideq qbout the current stste of debqte on the subject, qbiout ahich you cleqrly knoa NOTHINK, YOU IGNORQNT ENGLISH TQIT. Sorry qbout the typos, I:n in Grenoble on q fucking frog typeqriter qnd I cqn:t be bothered to correct then.

7 May 2002 : Column 62WH

1.40 pm

Mr. Wayne David (Caerphilly): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Llew Smith) on his forthright contribution. The strong strand of racism and xenophobia in Plaid Cymru's history is well tabulated. We have only to look at some of the writings of Saunders Lewis, the founder of Plaid Cymru, to recognise the truth of that. He believed that he could embrace the corporatist ideas of Mussolini, with whom he was enamoured. He certainly had plenty of time for the racist remarks of various fascist elements arising in Europe in the 1920s and 1930s. Let me make it clear that he was an anti-Semite. We can see that time and again in his writings—it runs through them from start to finish.

Saunders Lewis had sympathies for Mussolini, Franco and Hitler. Other elements in Plaid Cymru had sympathies—[Interruption.] Opposition Members should not betray some of their pedigree by interrupting in the way in which they are. If they stopped to listen for a moment, they might learn something. That goes for Scottish as well as Welsh nationalists.

Angus Robertson : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. David : My time is short and I have a number of points to make. I will not give way.

It was not only Saunders Lewis who was enamoured with fascist elements in Europe. On one occasion in the 1930s, when Welsh miners were going to Spain to fight for liberty and democracy, Welsh nationalist academics stood up in Cardiff university and toasted Franco as an honourable Christian gentleman. That is in the nationalists' history, and they cannot get away from it, even if they do not like it.

More recently, we have seen spasmodic examples of intolerance coming to the fore from the Welsh nationalist party, such as the comments of Simeon Glyn.

Paul Flynn (Newport, West): Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. David : My time is short, and I must continue.

We have seen the racist remarks of Simeon Glyn and the comments of Simon Brooks. What unites their views is an intolerance of English people and those who speak the English language. There was a report in The Western Mail yesterday about a new play written by a Welsh playwright by the name of Dic Edwards, about Welsh extremism and the Free Wales Army. Two of his performances have been disrupted by Welsh nationalist elements. He spoke forthrightly and sadly to The Western Mail, which reported:

"Born and brought up in Cardiff, Mr Edwards said he encountered racist attitudes towards immigrant communities in areas of the city and now sees similar racism towards English-speaking incomers in rural areas."

Mr. Simon Thomas (Ceredigion): Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?

Mr. David : The report quoted Mr. Edwards:

"'I come from a racist culture in Cardiff and now that I live in Aberaeron and work in Lampeter I know children who are discriminated against because they are English,' he said. He said his son Nick, brought up fluent in Welsh, was so disgusted with

7 May 2002 : Column 63WH

the attitudes he found among Welsh speakers towards English that now, at the age of 30, he wants nothing to do with the Welsh language."

That is extremely sad. I want the Welsh language saved and I want it to flourish. I call upon the Welsh nationalist party today to unite the communities of Wales—to unite the Welsh speakers and the English speakers, so that we have one Welsh nation.

Mr. Simon Thomas : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. David : I call upon the leadership of Plaid Cymru, once and for all, to renounce unequivocally the racism and xenophobia inherent in the party. Now, here is a chance for Plaid Cymru to renounce those elements. Let it do so.

 

[redsquirrel]

Right so your evidence that PC is/was facist is a speech made by an opposing political party . Oh and steeplejack isn't english.

 

[phildwyer]

that`s a factually incorrect statement.

Geographically most of wales has welsh language or bilingual education.

A very snqeky use of the word èGeogrqphicqlly,è, becquse qs you VERY QELL KNOQ, in ter,s of POPULQTION the vqst nqjority of schoolkids in Zales qre instructed in English 8for hose zho donèt knoz, the Zelsh populqtion is heqvily concentrqted in the south_eqst, qhich is qlnost entirle anglophone. Fuck these frog typeqriters, BTQ...

 

[phildwyer]

Right so your evidence that PC is/was facist is a speech made by an opposing political party . Oh and stepplejack isn't english.

Yes he is. And do your ozn bloody reseqrch, its not exqctly q controversiql point, qs q quick Google seqrch zill estqblish.

 

[steeplejack]

Buggered if I know why I should do your homework for you, but this exchqnge fro, Hqnsqrd nqy give you so,e ideq qbout the current stste of debqte on the subject, qbiout ahich you cleqrly knoa NOTHINK, YOU IGNORQNT ENGLISH TQIT. Sorry qbout the typos, I:n in Grenoble on q fucking frog typeqriter qnd I cqn:t be bothered to correct then.

7 May 2002 : Column 62WH

1.40 pm

Mr. Wayne David (Caerphilly): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Llew Smith) on his forthright contribution. The strong strand of racism and xenophobia in Plaid Cymru's history is well tabulated. We have only to look at some of the writings of Saunders Lewis, the founder of Plaid Cymru, to recognise the truth of that. He believed that he could embrace the corporatist ideas of Mussolini, with whom he was enamoured. He certainly had plenty of time for the racist remarks of various fascist elements arising in Europe in the 1920s and 1930s. Let me make it clear that he was an anti-Semite. We can see that time and again in his writings—it runs through them from start to finish.

Saunders Lewis had sympathies for Mussolini, Franco and Hitler. Other elements in Plaid Cymru had sympathies—[Interruption.] Opposition Members should not betray some of their pedigree by interrupting in the way in which they are. If they stopped to listen for a moment, they might learn something. That goes for Scottish as well as Welsh nationalists.

Angus Robertson : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. David : My time is short and I have a number of points to make. I will not give way.

It was not only Saunders Lewis who was enamoured with fascist elements in Europe. On one occasion in the 1930s, when Welsh miners were going to Spain to fight for liberty and democracy, Welsh nationalist academics stood up in Cardiff university and toasted Franco as an honourable Christian gentleman. That is in the nationalists' history, and they cannot get away from it, even if they do not like it.

More recently, we have seen spasmodic examples of intolerance coming to the fore from the Welsh nationalist party, such as the comments of Simeon Glyn.

Paul Flynn (Newport, West): Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. David : My time is short, and I must continue.

We have seen the racist remarks of Simeon Glyn and the comments of Simon Brooks. What unites their views is an intolerance of English people and those who speak the English language. There was a report in The Western Mail yesterday about a new play written by a Welsh playwright by the name of Dic Edwards, about Welsh extremism and the Free Wales Army. Two of his performances have been disrupted by Welsh nationalist elements. He spoke forthrightly and sadly to The Western Mail, which reported:

"Born and brought up in Cardiff, Mr Edwards said he encountered racist attitudes towards immigrant communities in areas of the city and now sees similar racism towards English-speaking incomers in rural areas."

Mr. Simon Thomas (Ceredigion): Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?

Mr. David : The report quoted Mr. Edwards:

"'I come from a racist culture in Cardiff and now that I live in Aberaeron and work in Lampeter I know children who are discriminated against because they are English,' he said. He said his son Nick, brought up fluent in Welsh, was so disgusted with

7 May 2002 : Column 63WH

the attitudes he found among Welsh speakers towards English that now, at the age of 30, he wants nothing to do with the Welsh language."

That is extremely sad. I want the Welsh language saved and I want it to flourish. I call upon the Welsh nationalist party today to unite the communities of Wales—to unite the Welsh speakers and the English speakers, so that we have one Welsh nation.

Mr. Simon Thomas : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. David : I call upon the leadership of Plaid Cymru, once and for all, to renounce unequivocally the racism and xenophobia inherent in the party. Now, here is a chance for Plaid Cymru to renounce those elements. Let it do so.

so a new Labour MP claims Plaid are fascist- case closed then!

And you've the nerve to call me ignorant you thick cunt. Not much point wasting my time debating with you then is there.