How does Israel get away with all it does?

[Bernie Gunther]

Hamas has made a major political climbdown by agreeing to sections of a document that recognise Israel's right to exist and a negotiated two-state solution, according to Palestinian leaders.

June 22nd, 2006

 

[CharlieAddict]

so who's telling the truth?

 

[Fong]

June 22nd, 2006

Hassan Nasrallah:"Israel is our enemy. This is an aggressive, illegal, and illegitimate entity, which has no future in our land. Its destiny is manifested in our motto: 'Death to Israel.'"

This is the problem Bernie.

Is the Hamas agreement to Israel as a state a legitimate action, or just a ploy to play to the media in light of recent events?

I would love to think that Hamas atleast would go that way and bring about peace in Palestine, but I have my doubts about the veracity of it.

Do you not?

I think Israel should still take the olive branch, make concession, create talks and plan for a future without violence between these two sides, but I am very doubtful that if that happens there will not be continued action against them, and there won't be another group that takes the place of Hamas as the group that wishes to see Israel destroyed, with the full backing and support of Hamas.

Political expendiency may requires Hamas to say what it needs to say, but what it really wants and what it will work for are two different things.

Are Hamas saying this because they believe Israel has the right to exist, or are they saying this because the EU has crippled them by denying them aid?

Only time will tell I suppose, but don't be too surprised if we continue to see terrorist action against Israel and Israel committing horrid acts of vengence.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

We are certainly going to see lots more terrorism.

Each bomb that the Israelis drop on Lebanese civilians and/or infrastructure increases the chance of that.

 

[Fong]

We are certainly going to see lots more terrorism.

Each bomb that the Israelis drop on Lebanese civilians and/or infrastructure increases the chance of that.

You act like there was little chance of that in the first place.

Considering Hezbollah intiated this conflict by hopping across a border killing atleast 3 and causing the deaths of 5 more while kidnapping 2 soldiers, you can hardly act like it was all peaches and cream until Israel dropped a bomb.

Lets put it another way.

For each Lebanese civilian killed that is one less civilian that can launch an attack on Israel.

Is that fair? Cause it seems to be about as fair as your statement.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Interesting interview with a former US envoy here about Nasrallah.

Here's Nasrallah talking about how and why Hezbollah originated.

SHEIKH SAYYED HASSAN NASRALLAH: [translated] You know that in the year 1978, the Israelis invaded South Lebanon, and the UN Security Council issued or passed the Resolution 425. They requested that the Israeli forces immediately withdraw from South Lebanon, and the Israelis did not. On the contrary, in the year 1982, they invaded more Lebanese territory. They even occupied the capital, Beirut. Mr. Sharon was the defense minister then.

Between 1978, 1982, up ’til the year 2000, the international community did nothing to help the Israeli occupation forces out of Lebanon, nor did it, meaning the international community, do anything to prevent these aggressions on Lebanon. There was a resolution called 425, but it was put on the shelf. We, as Lebanese, were left to face our fate.

Lebanon is a small country, weak, an army with very humble capabilities. What is first is that the people is torn as a result of the civil war, while facing the strongest army in the Middle East, meaning the Israeli Army. Not only the international community, specifically the U.S. administration, did nothing, there's also the Arab League, the OIC, Organization of Islamic Countries, nobody did anything.

and here are Ambassador Peck's comments.

EDWARD PECK: Well, let me start with saying that people in the Middle East, for obvious reasons, find it sort of ironic that Israel is now insisting on the implementation of 1559, whereas, as Nasrallah said, they ignored this earlier Security Council resolution demanding that they remove themselves from South Lebanon for 20 years, that that’s called selective morality. Everybody practices that, but it kind of cuts the ground up from under your stance if you think that only certain Security Council resolutions should be enforced.

Hezbollah, the problem we face -- the problem the Lebanese government faces is that Hezbollah is a political party, as you’re aware, that does a lot of things in the humanitarian and social field, which is good, and does some things in the military field, which certain people consider to be not good. And the Lebanese government, which is weak and riven, as you know, by the many, many sectarian groups and the differences that they have religiously and socially, is in no position whatsoever to take on Hezbollah. That would be a civil war. And while Israel does not mind necessarily seeing that happen, would like very much to have Hezbollah go away, there’s no way in the world, as far as I can tell, that the Lebanese would even consider undertaking this. And this was made clear to us by the leaders of the Lebanese government with whom we also met on that trip.

source

This is a real problem for Israel, by knowingly plunging Lebanon into chaos, they've shown the Lebanese people that a) Israel is their enemy, b) the international community is powerless to help them due to US power, c) their own government is weak and impotent against Israel's military power.

That creates a situation where a group like Hezbollah can arise, one that easily commands the primary loyalty of those on the receiving end of the IDF's air and artillery strikes.

 

[asdf man]

They could go back to their 1967 borders as part of a negotiated two-state solution.

This is a disgustingly pro-Zionist position is the reason why the ideology of left-wing groups in Europe can be construted as nothing but Zionist. It is opinions like these that lead to the 7/7 bombings and those who hold opinions such as these are the ones responsible.

I suppose you think that Iran's alleged role in supporting Shia insurgents in Iraq is justification for the Yankee war machine to roll into Tehran.

The only solution for the peoples of the Middle-East is revolution! A new socialist government not driven by Yankee running dog, oil hungry capitalist pigs.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Are you for real?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hassan Nasrallah:"Israel is our enemy. This is an aggressive, illegal, and illegitimate entity, which has no future in our land. Its destiny is manifested in our motto: 'Death to Israel.'"

This is the problem Bernie.

Is the Hamas agreement to Israel as a state a legitimate action, or just a ploy to play to the media in light of recent events?

I would love to think that Hamas atleast would go that way and bring about peace in Palestine, but I have my doubts about the veracity of it.

Do you not?

I think Israel should still take the olive branch, make concession, create talks and plan for a future without violence between these two sides, but I am very doubtful that if that happens there will not be continued action against them, and there won't be another group that takes the place of Hamas as the group that wishes to see Israel destroyed, with the full backing and support of Hamas.

Political expendiency may requires Hamas to say what it needs to say, but what it really wants and what it will work for are two different things.

Are Hamas saying this because they believe Israel has the right to exist, or are they saying this because the EU has crippled them by denying them aid?

Only time will tell I suppose, but don't be too surprised if we continue to see terrorist action against Israel and Israel committing horrid acts of vengence.

Any particular reason for quoting the leader of Hezbollah in a post where you talk about HAMAS?

I'd hate to think that you were conflating the two into one big Islamic conspiracy-type thang.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is a disgustingly pro-Zionist position is the reason why the ideology of left-wing groups in Europe can be construted as nothing but Zionist. It is opinions like these that lead to the 7/7 bombings and those who hold opinions such as these are the ones responsible.

I suppose you think that Iran's alleged role in supporting Shia insurgents in Iraq is justification for the Yankee war machine to roll into Tehran.

The only solution for the peoples of the Middle-East is revolution! A new socialist government not driven by Yankee running dog, oil hungry capitalist pigs.

You should sstop drinking the Drano, it's rotting your brain.

 

[ZAMB]

Acceptance of Israel's right to exist has been on the table at every half-plausible attempt to negotiate a settlement in the last couple of decades.

Israeli govt. and the US don't really want a settled peace with Palestine. I can find you numerous links on this, but for now

Apart from the Israel-Palestine conflict, fundamental U.S. policy in the Middle East hasn't been affected by the Lobby. For different reasons, both U.S. and Israeli elites have always believed that the Arabs need to be kept subordinate. However, once the U.S. solidified its alliance with Israel after June 1967, it began to look at Israelis * and Israelis projected themselves * as experts on the "Arab mind." Accordingly, the alliance with Israel has abetted the most truculent U.S. policies, Israelis believing that "Arabs only understand the language of force" and every few years this or that Arab country needs to be smashed up. The spectrum of U.S. policy differences might be narrow, but in terms of impact on the real lives of real people in the Arab world these differences are probably meaningful, the Israeli influence making things worse.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10199

ISRAELI AND PALESTINIAN PUBLIC OPINION CONVERGING ON GENEVA-LIKE SOLUTION, BUT ISRAELI LEADERSHIP ISN'T THERE

Also, there's a divergence between the leadership and public opinion. One of the most fascinating things of the last week is that for the first time in five years, but maybe even longer, a public opinion poll showed that the majority of Israelis and the majority of Palestinians support a full two-state solution, including all the components of the Geneva initiative, as long as you don't call it Geneva. Yet leadership, at least on the Israeli side, isn't there.

Also, one of the most elusive yet important factors is the lack of confidence and trust today. This lack is a basic part of the conflict. Emotion-driven policy is part of the conflict. There is too little use of the word "reconciliation" and no one is discussing reconciliation.

http://www.fmep.org/analysis/articles/israel_palestine_bush.html

 

[Wookster]

Israeli govt. and the US don't really want a settled peace with Palestine.

You don't need proof for this. The logic is that the Israeli's think they can get more (land and water) by violence rather than a settled peace - that would involve compromise!

 

[newharper]

Well this guy's got a view on why.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=10687

 

[ZAMB]

Well this guy's got a view on why.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=10687

Now THAT is one scary article.