How do you think the Green Party are doing?

[Matt S]

>>Why the hostility?>>

Well, for a start you refer to David Icke and co as 'truth tellers'. David Icke is a complete nutter, as should be patently obvious to even the most confused conspiracy theorist. You then go on to disagree utterly with the Green Party position on immigration, and appear to be blaming the poorest people in the world for environmental problems. If you really are a member (let alone a candidate) then you are in completely the wrong party. Please stop embarassing us.

I assure you that if I hear of any Green Party candidate calling for draconian immigration controls, or sterilisation, or indeed telling people that the world is run by giant lizards, I'll be moving their expulsion as quick as humanly possible. As bristol_citizen points out, David Icke throwbacks are the reason that many people still don't vote for us.

Matt

 

[greenman]

Please do seek to "get things changed" at the next conference as you will then experience the displeasure of the majority of Green members and activists towards your odious views, "Barry".
That is if you are really who you say you are and not a spook/troll/mischief maker.
My suspicions are raised by the fact that you cannot spell "Icke" and that you refer to the public as "Joe Slob" and "uneducated masses", not to mention your anti-humanist and racist views about immigration and poverty.

To reassure bristol citizen and others, if any prospective Green candidate started publicly spouting this crap they would not be a Green candidate, or probably Party member, for long! However, any party that seeks to be a mass party will have "sleeping members" who do not raise their heads and may have the crankiest of ideas and agendas, this goes with the territory. But we are not a "haven" for fash as they are booted out as soon as they are discovered. Covert infiltration is something else, something the whole left has to deal with, as recent embarrassing events in the SWP have shown.

I don't know what Bernie's speculation was before he deleted it, but I can guess - and the possible mischief maker's linking together of Icke, Gosling and Shayler is very telling. This stuff about "Truth Telling", iirc, "Truth Seeker" was a scummy anti-semitic rag and website run by some one time supporter of Icke?

We had just such a right wing conspiraloon (an obnoxious and trouble causing environmental activist who had been a member of the local Labour Party! ) try to join our local party once - we were able to put a stop to it very quickly.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I'm a member of the Green Party of England and Wales, and I think we need to concentrate more on revealing the truth about the shadowy people who run this planet to the average Joe Slob in the street. We need to form a wide 'coalition of the brave' with people like David Ike, Tony Gosling, and David Shayler to share the real reality with the uneducated masses. Also we need to target issues like unchecked immigration which does not go with sustainability, and we need to look at the ever growing populations of the third world, urgent funding to encourage birth control and even voluntary sterilisation in poor starving Africa and Bangladesh. These subjects are not controversial outside certain marxist paradigms.

I don't think you will last long on these boards.....

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I assure you that if I hear of any Green Party candidate calling for draconian immigration controls, or sterilisation, or indeed telling people that the world is run by giant lizards, I'll be moving their expulsion as quick as humanly possible. As bristol_citizen points out, David Icke throwbacks are the reason that many people still don't vote for us.

Matt

there is an argument for migration and population control, but clearly this blagging barry isn't the one to make any coherent explanation of it.

 

[TeeJay]

Thought I'd ask as theres not been a GP thread for a while.

Although as someone who votes Green and helps out with the Lambeth and London party occasionally (although I'm not a member now) I used to post up stuff about the GP from time to time, I am a bit frustrated sometimes at the seeming lack of engagment by the GP with the issue of the day (whatever that is). Having said that I saw Jenny Jones on TV today (The Politics Show - talking about pollution in the Thames).

However I don't think it is enough to just stick to a small set of issues that the GP chooses - I would like to see them wade in on every news item or debate. Often I have to go and root around on the "Manifesto for a Sustainable Society" to find out what the GP policy is a certain issue is, and sometimes it is a bit general and needs to be fleshed out.

I realise that the media have to take a lot of the "blame" for this - I know from bitter experience that even if you put on a press conference and send out press releases they will often completely ignore you. Things have got better since the MEPs and London Assembly members were elected, since journalists will include them from time to time for the sake of balancing and because they are good at interviews and speaking on TV.

However, I am disappointed at the low profile of the Green party generally, especially seeing how much goodwill and support there is for them out there. I think they could - and should - to really try and become more of a "mass" party, rather than an "activists" party. I'd like to see more emphasis on getting local parties established all across the country rather than having a smaller number of strong local parties or 'target seats' - I think the 'targets' will look after themselves to some degree if you have widespread activity.

I also think that the Green Party is really missing an opportunity of using the internet effectively. In South Korea and to some extent America the internet has been used effectively to mobilise people and in the former case was credited with winning an election. A lack of GP posters on u75 kind of reflects, IMO too much "inward looking" and focussing on "the usual channels".

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> But if you really are a Green candidate, then we know eactly how the Green Party are doing... You're still a safe haven for nutters and fascists.
You're the reason I shan't be voting Green.

The problem is of course, you don't know that this guy is a Green candidate. Myself I rather doubt that he is.

You have however apparently been influenced by him, at least on the basis of your last sentence.

I think this illustrates just how effective even crude propaganda of this kind can be.

 

[big footed fred]

Thought I'd ask as theres not been a GP thread for a while.

Had no idea they were still around.
I guess they need better marketing.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Had no idea they were still around.
I guess they need better marketing.

more exposure by the media, you mean?

 

[TeeJay]

I don't see it as feasible for any party capable of taking power to do anything useful about sustainability.

I don't agree with you but I recognise that this is a valid point of view. However this thread is about "How is the Green party doing?". If you look at the raison d'etre of the Green Party one of its central objectives is getting people elected and getting policies enacted. Many - probably most - people in the GP also take part in campaigns and in local action on sustainability, but the political party aspect is in addition and complementary to this, and has as a central part standing Greens on a Green manifesto in all levels of elections. If you don't see the point in this then how can you meaningfully comment on how the GP is doing? You don't think it should be doing anything in the first place.

 

[aurora green]

I've been a member for eleven years on and off, and I will be a candidate in the upcoming local elections. I disagree with some aspects of current party policy and will be seeking to get it changed at the next conference. Why the hostility? We need the truth tellers to unite, the Green Party is the only force that can achieve that.

I dont want to unite with people like you.
Who are 'we' to tell other people to be sterilised and such?
I sincerely hope your views are as unpalatable to each and every Green fighting for ecological and social justice.

 

[TeeJay]

It seems to me that the Greens are digging a big hole for themselves on Leeds Council. This is not something that fills me with delight as I do genuinely want to see cooperation between the socialist left and Greens (including those socialists who look to the Labour Party). The Greens are projecting themselves as simply anti-Labour but prepared to do deals and give ground to the Tories in order to achieve that.

What deals have they done exactly? What ground have they given?

Don't the Leeds GP have just 2 councillors? I don't see it as a bad thing at all that they managed to get the council to sign up to the Climate Change policy.

Given that you have reviously stated your dislike of the situation in Leeds I am pleasantly surprised that the best thing you can come up with is an example of the 2 Greens there getting Green policies passed.

 

[bristol_citizen]

The problem is of course, you don't know that this guy is a Green candidate. Myself I rather doubt that he is.

You have however apparently been influenced by him, at least on the basis of your last sentence.

I think this illustrates just how effective even crude propaganda of this kind can be.

The problem also is that there are people in the Green movement who hold these kind of views and I don't trust The Green Party to weed them out at present.

 

[TeeJay]

This barry blagger arse is a troll for sure - have a look at his posts on u75 so far. I don't believe he is a member of the GP at all. Of course if he wants to disprove this he can easily send a PM to MattS about which party he belongs to. It will be very easy to find out if he is genuine or not.

I predict that he won't be taking up this offer, because he is a lying troll, probably far right.

 

[TeeJay]

I hope you are a troll. But if you really are a Green candidate, then we know eactly how the Green Party are doing... You're still a safe haven for nutters and fascists.
You're the reason I shan't be voting Green.

I thought you were an anarchist? In which case you won't be voting for anyone anyway.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

The problem also is that there are people in the Green movement who hold these kind of views and I don't trust The Green Party to weed them out at present.

That may be so, but from what you were saying this *particular* poster had influenced your views on them.

Which unless I misunderstood you, shows just how effective this stuff can be.

 

[bristol_citizen]

That may be so, but from what you were saying this *particular* poster had influenced your views on them.

Which unless I misunderstood you, shows just how effective this stuff can be.

It's more that the poster confirmed a prejudice I already had really.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Did you ever see this thread?

 

[tbaldwin]

Agree with Matthew Edwards about the leadership thing. A Red/Green party would be a good thing.There must be 100s of thousands who would support such a party if it began to look credible.

 

[chooch]

There must be 100s of thousands who would support such a party if it began to look credible.

By credible do you mean unprincipled?

 

[lewislewis]

I am wondering what people think about now the Scottish Green Party is doing?

For those of you that don't know, the SGP is an entirely separate party from the English and welsh one, and has had 7 members of the scottish parliament since 2003.

It now has two (gender balanced) leaders - Robin Harper and Shiona Baird who have de jure power within the party (taking in turns to chair the party's powerful national council) and de facto power within the parliament (taking it in turns to question jack mcconnel at first ministers Question time). This appears to have happened without too many problems.

It also has been having it's own coalition negotiations -
http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/53696.html

so, any comments?

The Scottish Green Party is faultless for their environmental agenda and their position on the national question.

All too often, the focus of UK observers falls on the Green Party of England & Wales (e.g on this thread). I feel speakers on this subject should give more time to the SGP, because although they don't have MEP's or run local authorities, they have 7 members in the Scottish Parliament and are in a more powerful position than the GPEW.

A coalition between the SGP and the Scottish National Party would be a brilliant idea.
Such a move would present an alternative to New Labour in Scotland that was not only sufficiently radical and committed to sustainable development, but also electable.

The SGP are good activists and intelligent people, there are alot of intellectuals and academics in the party and they aren't seen as 'loony lefties'.

The SNP have also led the way on trying to stop inhumane dawn raids on asylum seekers, and the SGP among others have supported them.

An SNP-Green Coalition would agree on:
* Independence for Scotland
* Anti-nuclear on waste and new stations
* Anti-nuclear on weapons
* Renewables
* Community-level planning appeals
* Caution and where necessary opposition to PFI/PPP
* Stopping inhumane treatment of asylum seekers.

The points where disagreements would take place are road building, airports, oil and fisheries.

Still, we should look at the SGP more talk about their prospects.

 

[MatthewEdwards]

Excellent post Lewis. Our gaze is still so strong on the perceived centre - London, and the tiny cliques that control the mainstream media - and we ignore the perceived peripheries far too easily. What is happening with the Scottish Green party is exciting. In reply to Matt Sellwood, I could list a thousand movements with inspired and inspiring leadership which would never have existed, let alone prospered, without it. I will stop short of that and offer the gender-balanced co-convenors of the Scottish Green party as evidence in the case for the prosecution.

As for the credible/unprincipled divide, well once again we find ourselves too easily swamped in the slough of despond of our current system. The system isn't working, and it needs changing. Part of that change is a new movement which is credible and principled. Another world is possible!

Latin: credo, credere - 'believe/trust'

Here's a politician you could trust - http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRhardie.htm

 

[tbaldwin]

By credible do you mean unprincipled?

No i mean credible and principled. That means the environment is an issue that effects everyone not just an aware elite. It means appealig beyond the narrow confines of activists to the wider population.

 

[lewislewis]

I'm disappointed that not one person on here apart from Matthew is willing to discuss the real possibility of the Greens entering a national government!

It's a step up from electing local councillors is it not?

 

[chooch]

It means appealig beyond the narrow confines of activists to the wider population.

What appeals to the wider population, and why?

 

[MatthewEdwards]

My final piece on the case for leadership: I call to the witness stand Mahatma Gandhi. Unfortunately he's a bit quiet these days. But what exactly would the movement have been without him?

 

[treelover]

yes, but what about welfare reform, poverty, drugs, crime, homelessness, housing, i could go on.


quoteAn SNP-Green Coalition would agree on:
* Independence for Scotland
* Anti-nuclear on waste and new stations
* Anti-nuclear on weapons
* Renewables
* Community-level planning appeals
* Caution and where necessary opposition to PFI/PPP
* Stopping inhumane treatment of asylum seekers.quote

 

[tbaldwin]

What appeals to the wider population, and why?

Self interest, remember the poll tax riots.

 

[chooch]

Self interest, remember the poll tax riots.

I remember them well. Hard to see any parallel though. Short-term interests and long-term interests don't always align neatly.

 

[lewislewis]

Self interest, remember the poll tax riots.

I find from intersubjective analysis that the 'general public' in England is very self-interested, conservative (with a small 'c'), aspires to be 'middle-class', materialist, and supports right-wing newspapers.