How do we make degrees worth something again?

[FridgeMagnet]

How do we make literacy worth something again?

It used to be that being able to read and write guaranteed you a job for life, but nowadays it's become diluted and is just expected.

1) We could obviously make literacy harder - say, by introducing some phonetic spelling system that confused anyone growing up without a particular prestige accent.

2) What about only teaching people words that they need for their job until they've done two years of full-time employment?

3) How about requiring that you do community service before being taught to read anything?

etc etc

 

[kabbes]

You and I have had this debate before kabbes, you know my opinion which is that education should prepare you for life and part of life is employment.

And does doing a degree prepare you for employment?

 

[weltweit]

And does doing a degree prepare you for employment?

Mine definately did.

 

[kabbes]

Mine definately did.

Sorry, I was getting you mixed up with the OP.

So basically you're happy with the system. Fair enough.

 

[mrs quoad]

Less essays.

Fewer.

 

[mrs quoad]

And does doing a degree prepare you for employment?

I think I might end up as an academic.

Or working in the quite specific field I'm studying

 

[sim667]

My degree is worth something, i couldnt teach without it

the 2 years in full time epmployment before uni wont work, not enough jobs.....

We need to encourage people into vocational quals instead of degrees, we also need to try and encourage people into undersubscribed careers......

The government also need to stop encouraging everyone to go to uni, there simply weren't enough university place, and with all the funding cuts that are going on degrees will become less and less pointless as equipment deteriorates and staff redundancies will affect students work.

 

[nadia]

The government also need to stop encouraging everyone to go to uni, there simply weren't enough university place, and with all the funding cuts that are going on degrees will become less and less pointless as equipment deteriorates and staff redundancies will affect students work.

I would agree with this, the equipment here is on its last legs. It's embarassing. It's not even representative of what would be used in a proffesional situation

 

[kabbes]

There was someone on the news just the other day all upset because her degree in "wildlife management" wasn't guaranteeing her the job that she'd naturally expected would land on her lap.

And then they started talking about how degrees maybe should become more "practical based".

This is what bothers me. It's become that people don't get to choose if they really truly want to undertake the kind of rigorous thesis-antithesis-synthesis analysis-based study that was originally the point of doing a "degree". Instead, it's something they simply have to have in order to get a job. So the marketplace has responded by increasingly watering down the original idea and replacing it with "degree-lite", for people who don't really want to do a degree.

But there shouldn't be anything wrong with not wanting to do a degree. There should be life-long education, training and general learning in any case. A degree should be just some small specialised subset of that total learning, which appeals to the minority who prefer hardcore academia.

The fact that it's all got mixed up is what leads to this increasingly prevalent notion that you leave school at 18, do anything you can for 3 years to get the paper and then abandon any kind of study for the rest of your life. I'm not saying that it is a notion that yet necessarily forms the majority view, but it's getting there... and my worry is that in 20 or 30 years it will be all-prevalent.

 

[weltweit]

But it bothers me kabbes that you seem to think only academic subjects could be valid subjects for degree level study. My degree was vocational, it was practical and yet it was a vigorous three year course with a sandwich year in relevant work. I get miffed when people suggest such a course is not worthy of the title degree. I had to work very hard for my 2:1.

 

[Oswaldtwistle]

Interesting post from Fridge Magnet, but I'm not sure I agree with it. The modern economy needs pretty much everyone to have some level of literacy. I'm not convinced we need everyone (or even 50%) to have a degree.

the 2 years in full time epmployment before uni wont work, not enough jobs.....

Well at the moment a lot of graduates go into basic office work or stuff like bar work, shops, cafes. No-one should be 'too good' for such work (I'm currently applying for cleaning and packing jobs for my year out)

But would it not make more sense for people to do such jobs *before* they start uni?

 

[kabbes]

But it bothers me kabbes that you seem to think only academic subjects could be valid subjects for degree level study. My degree was vocational, it was practical and yet it was a vigorous three year course with a sandwich year in relevant work. I get miffed when people suggest such a course is not worthy of the title degree. I had to work very hard for my 2:1.

It's not about working hard. It's about getting out of the mindset that something is worth more than something else just because of the nature of the study. I'm not suggesting that what you did is not "worth" as much, not least because "worth" is entirely a subjective concept. There is no "absolute worth".

What it IS about is recognising that studying an analytical, theoretical, thesis-antithesis-synthesis subject is just a fundamentally different thing to learning something practical and work-focussed. So why mix them up? Why tell people that they have to do the former when they really want to do the latter, and then have to water down the former to the cost of the people who wanted to do this all along? It's just a big PR game and it's costing us dearly across the board.

 

[gamma globulins]

What it IS about is recognising that studying an analytical, theoretical, thesis-antithesis-synthesis subject is just a fundamentally different thing to learning something practical and work-focussed. So why mix them up?

This I find problematic. What about scientific research, where you have to have a ton of practical abilities, but also the ability to parse information and conflicting theories in light of new information that one may have generated oneself?

 

[kabbes]

This I find problematic. What about scientific research, where you have to have a ton of practical abilities, but also the ability to parse information and conflicting theories in light of new information that one may have generated oneself?

What about it? I'm not saying that the traditional degree needs to totally exclude practical discipline. Nor am I saying that the traditional degree will not be the precursor to a tonne of jobs that have always traditionally required a traditional degree.

If you want to do scientific research, you will do a science degree, which will include practical laboratory experiments. As has always been the case.

 

[8ball]

If they start by only accepting people onto degree courses who can already read, write and count then the rest will follow naturally enough.

 

[Pickman's model]

If you are suggesting employers should invest more in training for work, where would that leave smaller and middle sized companies who perhaps have less resources?

start a thread on that then

 

[_angel_]

But it bothers me kabbes that you seem to think only academic subjects could be valid subjects for degree level study. My degree was vocational, it was practical and yet it was a vigorous three year course with a sandwich year in relevant work. I get miffed when people suggest such a course is not worthy of the title degree. I had to work very hard for my 2:1.

I don't get the sniffiness about them all having to be academic subjects either. If your degree is training you to be something specific what is wrong with that? Yes, it's probably just a new way of doing an apprenticeship/ training, but it beats some subjects where you suspect they don't actually need to know that stuff anyway and will never use anyway. If you see what I mean.

 

[kabbes]

It's not about being sniffy. It's about recognising that there are two disparate and non-compatable wants here -- one for the kind of theoretical, analytical degrees that have always been a precursor to serious study and one for a different type of study that may be more practical and more geared towards workplace needs. If you try to combine the two then you end up satisfying neither. Furthermore, you alienate people from lifelong education by forcing them to study in a manner that doesn't suit them. What's the point?

 

[Idaho]

Results improve = standards are falling
Results get worse = standards are falling
Results stay the same = no progress being made in education

 

[weltweit]

It's not about being sniffy. It's about recognising that there are two disparate and non-compatable wants here -- one for the kind of theoretical, analytical degrees that have always been a precursor to serious study and one for a different type of study that may be more practical and more geared towards workplace needs. If you try to combine the two then you end up satisfying neither. Furthermore, you alienate people from lifelong education by forcing them to study in a manner that doesn't suit them. What's the point?

My degree was plenty theoretical and analytical thanks.

 

[_angel_]

It's not about being sniffy. It's about recognising that there are two disparate and non-compatable wants here -- one for the kind of theoretical, analytical degrees that have always been a precursor to serious study and one for a different type of study that may be more practical and more geared towards workplace needs. If you try to combine the two then you end up satisfying neither. Furthermore, you alienate people from lifelong education by forcing them to study in a manner that doesn't suit them. What's the point?

The latter was the whole point of polytechnic degree courses, though, wasn't it?
To assume it somehow doesn't necessarily need the same amount of serious study, even though it's different would be wrong.

 

[weltweit]

I would be all in favour of renaming the former Polytechnics back into Polytechnics.

Then it would be clearer that if you want to improve your employment prospects in some specific way you go to a Poly, and if you want to be an academic you go to a Uni.

But both would still be able to offer degree level qualifications.

 

[kabbes]

Oh I give up. People are too willing to assume that some insult is being levelled at them or there is some underlying agenda to the message. It becomes too personal.

 

[Cloo]

I strongly feel that fewer people should go to university, with the remaining places properly funded, and, somehow, more businesses encouraged/made to take on non-graduates. I honestly don't see why someone with a non-vocational degree is better than someone without any kind of degree at a lot of jobs, if they're given a chance, and uni's increasingly becoming an expensive hindrance to doing well for yourself before the age of 40 or so!

The mass expansion of places was basically a way for Labour to be able to crow 'Look how many more people went to uni under us', because that's a quicker fix than actually making the rest of the education sector better.

 

[fractionMan]

What amazes me is that people will happily put themselves 20k in debt for the privilege of gaining a 2:2 in film/media/bellybutton studies.

 

[newme]

Stop giving out degrees with the equivalent applications of underwater basket weaving.

 

[fractionMan]

tbh, I wish I'd done a HND or equiv in ceramics rather than starting and not finishing a degree in it.

HNDs sound crap (and usually are crap) though. That's part of the problem imo.

 

[weltweit]

I dunno, I employed a chap with an HND over a competing person with a general degree, I never regretted it, the HND chap hit the ground running and was most practical to the problems of our business.


eta: and I know this is a generalisation, but one was a doer and the other a talker.

 

[Pickman's model]

Results improve = standards are falling
Results get worse = standards are falling
Results stay the same = no progress being made in education

perhaps if you followed what's been going on in higher education for the past twenty years i might have more appreciation for your opinion

 

[FiFi]

Great. I'm just about to gain my degree, and this thread about how devalued they are comes along.

Now I know how A Level students feel.