how could the soviet union have been a success?

[butchersapron]

The existence of capitalism is dependent for any degree of stability on the ability in law to own private property

No it's not.

 

[butchersapron]

What's capitalism?

 

[mk12]

The existence of capitalism is dependent for any degree of stability on the ability in law to own private property, so yes, legally it can be done away with. That doesn't remove the existence of those who may hold property and want to turn it into private holdings by creating a state that defends that right in law.

Incidentally, do you ever say what you think? In months of noticing your posts you rarely do anything other than ask short questions. It doesn't really make for easy dialogue

I just think it's pretty shocking for a socalled Marxist to believe that capitalism can be done away with overnight, that's all. As butchers keeps trying to point out, you seem to have an odd view of what capitalism really is. You see communism as a "state of affairs to be established" by decree, which flys in the face of what Marx argued.

And even Engels suggested that state-ownership did not mean the end of capitalism.

 

[Gmart]

What's capitalism?

The ownership of capital, upon which is based the banking system.

 

[Spion]

I just think it's pretty shocking for a socalled Marxist to believe that capitalism can be done away with overnight.

Except I didn't say that. The law protecting it and, the state that enforces the law can be got rid of. But there'd still be capitalists and there'd still be workers, dependent on the extent to which the workers have organised a new form of economy

As butchers keeps trying to point out, you seem to have an odd view of what capitalism really is.

I've no idea what Butchers is trying to say. He needs to articulate his thoughts more carefully instead of being so grunty

You see communism as a "state of affairs to be established" by decree, which flys in the face of what Marx argued.

Except I don't. Gettting rid of capitalism should be done by the w/c struggling against the capitalists' state and in their organising the production and distribution of life's needs in the process.

It's really fucking dull discussing with someone a) who doesn't read what I say or have the courtesy to ask what I think if it's not there b) who never says what they think, except by the inference I might gain from their one-liner questions

And even Engels suggested that state-ownership did not mean the end of capitalism.

You've studied all this in quite some depth haven't you?

 

[butchersapron]

The ownership of capital, upon which is based the banking system.

What does this mean matthews?

 

[butchersapron]

You've studied all this in quite some depth haven't you?

Are you an expert then Spion?

 

[mk12]

I have read Marx and Engels, yeah. As most Marxists have, I would have thought

Spion, you said that there was a specific date when capitalism was done away with in the soviet union. When property was nationalised (by a bureaucracy divorced from the w/c). How that corresponds with "Gettting rid of capitalism should be done by the w/c struggling against the capitalists' state and in their organising the production and distribution of life's needs in the process" I don't know.

 

[Gmart]

who?

In many countries they don't even have a fixed register of property, thus enabling people to own their own land, and getting away from the feudal system they find themselves trapped in. Without a system the rich take advantage of the poor using force. The banks then use the property as collateral for creating business.

One good and progressive move in the last few years has been the micro-banking (see here), which helps the poor. Which is the priority. Enabling the poor to make a better life for themselves and their families.

 

[butchersapron]

snip

What's capital Matthews?

 

[Gmart]

What's capital Matthews?

Anything that people might consider valuable.

Could be a house which has value to many people, but could be many other things.

 

[butchersapron]

Anything that people might consider valuable.

Could be a house which has value to many people, but could be many other things.

So having houses = capitalism? 'Having' something?

 

[Gmart]

Anything of value.

 

[butchersapron]

That's capitalism. 'Having' something of value? (from where?)

OK, thanks for that.

 

[Gmart]

No problem!

People give value to things. This house here is worth that amount because that is how much people would pay to buy it.

It even works in the barter system.

People wish to make agreements with each other.

Would you want to stop them?

 

[Spion]

Spion, you said that there was a specific date when capitalism was done away with in the soviet union. When property was nationalised (by a bureaucracy divorced from the w/c). How that corresponds with "Gettting rid of capitalism should be done by the w/c struggling against the capitalists' state and in their organising the production and distribution of life's needs in the process" I don't know.

Did you notice the word 'should' in what I said? That's rather different from 'can only'.

Well, how about you tell me what you think for a change? When would you judge a society to have got rid of capitalism?

 

[Spion]

Are you an expert then Spion?

*throws Butchers a banana*

 

[butchersapron]

Did you notice the word 'should' in what I said? That's rather different from 'can only'.

Well, how about you tell me what you think for a change? When would you judge a society to have got rid of capitalism?

But the USSR *DID* in your telling. When?

 

[butchersapron]

*throws Butchers a banana*

Keep 'em coming. Do i get one each time you ignore a question or what?

 

[Spion]

Keep 'em coming. Do i get one each time you ignore a question or what?

Why would I answer your questions? You're clearly unable or unwilling to give your own views

 

[butchersapron]

Clearly.

 

[butchersapron]

Why would I answer your questions? You're clearly unable or unwilling to give your own views

Why would you answer my questions? On here? A BB. Is this a joke?

 

[mk12]

Spion makes a point, someone questions him and urges him to explain himself more, then he stalls and say "what do you think".

Come on Spion - stand up for yourself!

I'm just interested in when you think the abolition of capitalism occured in Russia. What day? Which decree?

 

[Spion]

I already did. Your turn. Say something interesting, why don't you?

 

[butchersapron]

Don't divide the movement mk12.

 

[Gmart]

Keep 'em coming. Do i get one each time you ignore a question or what?

Says he ignoring mine!

to restate:

People give value to things. This house here is worth that amount because that is how much people would pay to buy it.

It even works in the barter system.

People wish to make agreements with each other.

Would you want to stop them?

 

[butchersapron]

Says he ignoring mine!

to restate:

People give value to things. This house here is worth that amount because that is how much people would pay to buy it

This house was built when and by who? And with what?

Do you see the presuppositions contained in your 'starting' point? Or not?

 

[Lock&Light]

I haven't bothered to read this particular thread, but the question is just about as old as I am, and the answer, I think, is clear.

Even the most best-intended policies cannot be effective if violence is involved in the argument.

Unfortunately there are still many idiots who think that they can hammer their ideology into the heads of their opponents.

 

[mk12]

I already did. Your turn. Say something interesting, why don't you?

Well I am convinced by your arguments. Capitalism was abolished in the Soviet Union by decree (not sure when though). Let's say 1928.

 

[Gmart]

was built

Past tense, not relevant.