Lea
Well-Known Member
Are you asking how could Jesus (in particular) died for our sins?
If so then I thought that he died so that God could forgive us for our sins.
How can you die for other peoples sins?
- Thread starter i-am-your-idea
- Start date
Are you asking how could Jesus (in particular) died for our sins?
If so then I thought that he died so that God could forgive us for our sins.
i-am-your-idea
pretty vacant
yes, maybe one way of looking at it is to imagine that maybe there's a divine cleansing ray that will destroy all worlds, or all bits of worlds that aren't worth keeping, due for a certain date.
And maybe the idea was that the death of Jesus was supposed to set events in motion that would result in the world not being terminally fucked up when that date arrives. As in, he died for our sins, in that it was an attempt by God to create something that would give us the chance to put things right, at least on one enchanted island.
thanks for the reminder.
And maybe the idea was that the death of Jesus was supposed to set events in motion that would result in the world not being terminally fucked up when that date arrives. As in, he died for our sins, in that it was an attempt by God to create something that would give us the chance to put things right, at least on one enchanted island.
thanks for the reminder.
Many religions??
As far as I know it is these days only a central dogma of Christianity.
salaam.
Even without inserting the argument that God can't have children it is unbelievable for the simple fact that God is the ultimate justice.
Suppose you see God as a father, the father of Jesus. Which father could kill his own son and still be able to claim he is the ultimate justice?
salaam.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
The concept of the sacrifice of the god, is an old one that started out long before Jesus got hammered.
Because God’s judgement for sin is death. There must be a price to pay for breaking the law.
Jesus did not sin but he chose to pay the price for our sins by suffering and dying for us. This was the heavy burden that God offered to Jesus. By accepting Jesus and his loving sacrifice we can share in his resurrection.
Jesus did not sin but he chose to pay the price for our sins by suffering and dying for us. This was the heavy burden that God offered to Jesus. By accepting Jesus and his loving sacrifice we can share in his resurrection.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
you bloddy well can't.
Peoples wrongs and mistakes ar THEIRS, by absolving them we make the person less than it should be, WE make our lives, WE make the mistakes and WE are responsible for the acts we commit.
The christian concept of forgiveness is beautiful and horrifying. It absolves with ease and never thinks that maybe the guilty shhould atone. They see atonement as irrevocably tied with punishment. Horrible doctrine imo.
You must aknowledge that you have sin and then accept Jesus's offered sacrifice to pay the penalty of death that is Gods judgment for sin. Or you can pay this debt yourself by rejecting Jesus.
However, this does not automatically mean that there will not be consequences in this world for wrondoing. He will chastise you in your life in order to correct you and teach you. You will however be forgiven.
By not accepting Jesus's offered sacrfice you must pay that price yourself on judgement day.
For example, a powerful and evil man may die without having being punished for his wrongdoing in this life. Whereas as a man that aknowledges his wrongdoing, repents, and accepts Jesus's sacrice for him may well suffer as God chastises and corrects him as a loving father would.
Since death is only the last step towards being able to be with God how can death be a punishment?
If you mean by death "eternal death" in the sense of being deprived of paradise for eternity, how can God be the Ultimate Justice and Compassion?
You can't know that and you can't believe that if you think about it how your own misfortune inevitably affects others who are completely innocent at your wrongdoings.
No.
God is not a "father".
God = God.
salaam.
By this logic there can be no justice because there would be no price for breaking God's law. Unless you believe that everyone pays for their wrongdoing in this life and then reaches paradise. Or unless you believe there is a limited price to pay before everyone reaches paradise.
No I can't know what God will do. So I cannot say He will chastise a repentent wrongdoer, but He may or may not still correct and chastise you despite your soul having been forgiven. Whether He will, in what way, and to what extent is God's decision.
No.
God is not a "father".
God = God.
salaam.
He is the father of creation.
I found this article very interesting. I think it is very thought provoking and contemplative on some questions. It is actually fairly contrary (I think) to what I said earlier and I think that it adds some balance and a different perspective.
How can a loving God send people to Hell?
How can a loving God send people to Hell?
Jorum
Well-Known Member
The idea of a sacraficial victim dying in order to cleanse the sins of others is covered in the old testament. It describes the rituals whereby all the sins of a tribe are transferred to a goat, which is then killed, erasing the sin from the tribe - it's where we get the word "scapegoat".
The story of Jesus's sacrificial death is obviously a variation on this.
Besides, the whole principle of original sin is an incredibly vindictive and unjust concept. One must assume God to be astoundingly petty and cruel.
The story of Jesus's sacrificial death is obviously a variation on this.
Besides, the whole principle of original sin is an incredibly vindictive and unjust concept. One must assume God to be astoundingly petty and cruel.
i-am-your-idea
pretty vacant
yes. you could say that.
i think it was as soon as they percieved sin, that sin was 'created'.
sin is just a perception. so to percieve sin, is to 'bring it into the world'
maybe god never saw the original sin as a sin. but in the story, adam and eve did. they thought they could go against gods will. and it was this that caused them to be distanced from god.
god is just mystery. our relationship with the unknown. if you believe you can go against the unknown forces, then you are viewing yourself as set apart from them.
Jorum
Well-Known Member
or it could be allegory - don't seek (the tree of) knowledge - it's not for you. Just sit there and do what we tell you.
Although also it's probably an adoption or adaptation of the greek mythology regarding apples of the gods.
Indeed Jesus himself seems to share quiet a few traits picked up from Dionysus myths and cults.
Although also it's probably an adoption or adaptation of the greek mythology regarding apples of the gods.
Indeed Jesus himself seems to share quiet a few traits picked up from Dionysus myths and cults.
Just looking at the book 'the Jesus Mysteries' on Wiki the authors claim that:
'• Osiris-Dionysus is God made flesh, the savior and "Son of God."
• His father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin.
• He is born in a cave or humble cowshed on December 25 before three shepherds.
• He offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism.
• He miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony.
• He rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while people wave palm leaves to honor him.
• He dies at Eastertime as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.
• After his death he descends to hell, then on the third day he rises from the dead and ascends to heaven in glory.
• His followers await his return as the judge during the Last Days.
• His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine, which symbolize his body and blood. '
However, to ascribe the story of Jesus as simply an adoption of other non-Jewish traditions would seem to ignore ‘the more direct ties to Jewish tradition and prophecy.’
It is not the gospels that claims Jesus was born on the 25th of December. There is no doubt at all I think that it was the early church that ascribed Easter and the 25th of December to existing pagan festival dates. Likewise satan, I don’t believe it is the bible that said he had horns, but like Pan of old, in the popular mythology he has.
Again, the palm leaves and donkey, also go back to Judaic prophesy. As do the prophesies of the messiah as the saviour.
I understand the point you are making, but most of the parallels are fairly vague, and certainly not as simplistic and clear as the above list. If you take about 5 ancient deities, and then take some more or less vaguely parallel events, you think that you can show that the gospel is merely an adaptation of ancient pagan traditions? I’m not convinced.
Lets look at Dionysus. It is argued that his ‘crucification’ was borrowed from Christians, several centuries after Christianity had begun to be established and spread.
Dionysus was never considered crucified until the fourth or fifth century Christian era. No original mythology holds that he was actually crucified and killed. The actual ancient tradition of Dionysus death is not that Dionysus was crucified.
Dionysus was the product of one of Zeus dalliances here on earth.
The ancient tradition of Dionysus death is quite different. Zeus actually had sex with his virgin mother. To prove to his wife Hera that he did not love Dionysus mother, Zeus slew Dionysus with a sword. Zeus repaired his wounds and he was given immortal status at Olympus. He did return to earth for a short period (descending from Olympus) where he enchanted women to rip Pentheus limb to limb and and his mother to rip his head off.
I accept that myths and legends will throw up God like heroes who save the day and that in the Dionysus myth he was the son of a god. And I realize that the early Roman church created its festivals in line with pagan traditional dates. But I do not think that the Gospel story of Jesus is merely an amalgamation of ancient pagan traditions and stories.
'• Osiris-Dionysus is God made flesh, the savior and "Son of God."
• His father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin.
• He is born in a cave or humble cowshed on December 25 before three shepherds.
• He offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism.
• He miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony.
• He rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while people wave palm leaves to honor him.
• He dies at Eastertime as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.
• After his death he descends to hell, then on the third day he rises from the dead and ascends to heaven in glory.
• His followers await his return as the judge during the Last Days.
• His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine, which symbolize his body and blood. '
However, to ascribe the story of Jesus as simply an adoption of other non-Jewish traditions would seem to ignore ‘the more direct ties to Jewish tradition and prophecy.’
It is not the gospels that claims Jesus was born on the 25th of December. There is no doubt at all I think that it was the early church that ascribed Easter and the 25th of December to existing pagan festival dates. Likewise satan, I don’t believe it is the bible that said he had horns, but like Pan of old, in the popular mythology he has.
Again, the palm leaves and donkey, also go back to Judaic prophesy. As do the prophesies of the messiah as the saviour.
I understand the point you are making, but most of the parallels are fairly vague, and certainly not as simplistic and clear as the above list. If you take about 5 ancient deities, and then take some more or less vaguely parallel events, you think that you can show that the gospel is merely an adaptation of ancient pagan traditions? I’m not convinced.
Lets look at Dionysus. It is argued that his ‘crucification’ was borrowed from Christians, several centuries after Christianity had begun to be established and spread.
Dionysus was never considered crucified until the fourth or fifth century Christian era. No original mythology holds that he was actually crucified and killed. The actual ancient tradition of Dionysus death is not that Dionysus was crucified.
Dionysus was the product of one of Zeus dalliances here on earth.
The ancient tradition of Dionysus death is quite different. Zeus actually had sex with his virgin mother. To prove to his wife Hera that he did not love Dionysus mother, Zeus slew Dionysus with a sword. Zeus repaired his wounds and he was given immortal status at Olympus. He did return to earth for a short period (descending from Olympus) where he enchanted women to rip Pentheus limb to limb and and his mother to rip his head off.
I accept that myths and legends will throw up God like heroes who save the day and that in the Dionysus myth he was the son of a god. And I realize that the early Roman church created its festivals in line with pagan traditional dates. But I do not think that the Gospel story of Jesus is merely an amalgamation of ancient pagan traditions and stories.
The other leading contender for the ‘pagan copycat’ thesis is the Roman god Mithra. This essay looks in detail at the claimed parallels.
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html
max_freakout
Nothing matters
Just found a nıce quote about Jesus whıch answers the OP:
