How big is the far left?

[Fisher_Gate]

...

If you don't count the ILP or CPB then you might be right Fisher Gate, but I was including them. I doubt the far-left in England has more than about 4000 combined today.

The ILP flirted with far left politics in the mid-1930s joining the 'London Bureau' of left wing parties - Trosky went as far as describing the London Bureau as 'centrist' between revolution and reformism - but for most of its life it was a thoroughly reformist social democratic current. Even then, its officially quoted (paper) membership fell from 16,773 when it left the Labour Party in 1931, to 4,392 in 1935 (Milliband quoting Pelling). The actual number of activists who were consistently on the 'far left' was much less than that.

The CPB has always been a thoroughly reformist outfit.

 

[tbaldwin]

Like the Labour Party for instance?

Gra

Well the LP leadership are often criticises by people on the afr left for this but well talk about people in glass houses etc....

 

[cockneyrebel]

The ILP flirted with far left politics in the mid-1930s joining the 'London Bureau' of left wing parties - Trosky went as far as describing the London Bureau as 'centrist' between revolution and reformism - but for most of its life it was a thoroughly reformist social democratic current. Even then, its officially quoted (paper) membership fell from 16,773 when it left the Labour Party in 1931, to 4,392 in 1935 (Milliband quoting Pelling). The actual number of activists who were consistently on the 'far left' was much less than that.

The CPB has always been a thoroughly reformist outfit.

But the fact remains that there were 1000s of people in the CPB who thought the CPB was a revolutionary organisation.

This year we have seen historically low strike figures and the far left is in a pitiful state. Yes the CPB might have been reformist but there is nothing of its kind today. Or the ILP.

All you have is a handful of tiny trotskyist organisations with a total membership of probably no more than about 4000. Yes in a formal sense you might be able to argue that the far left isn't in the worst state in 100 years, but considering you don't have organisations around like the CPB and ILP which dwarfed the trotskyist left, I'd say it is.

 

[mk12]

The LP leadership are extremely out of touch with "most people's" views TB. Look at all the polls. Look at the percentage of people who are satisfied with the government. Look at people's views on renationalisation of the railways, health, education, the war etc etc. I think you'll find that "most people" are closer to the far left than Blair and the LP leadership on these issues.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

But the fact remains that there were 1000s of people in the CPB who thought the CPB was a revolutionary organisation.

This year we have seen historically low strike figures and the far left is in a pitiful state. Yes the CPB might have been reformist but there is nothing of its kind today. Or the ILP.

All you have is a handful of tiny trotskyist organisations with a total membership of probably no more than about 4000. Yes in a formal sense you might be able to argue that the far left isn't in the worst state in 100 years, but considering you don't have organisations around like the CPB and ILP which dwarfed the trotskyist left, I'd say it is.

I've never met anyone in the CPB who believed in revolution. I think the idea there were '1000s' is a figment of your imagination.

 

[cockneyrebel]

I've never met anyone in the CPB who believed in revolution. I think the idea there are '1000s' is a figment of your imagination.

Bollox. My grandparents and their friends were in the CPB and they all believe in the need for a revolutionary change in society, even if they also had illusions in the parliamentary road. They certainly had very, very different ideas to your average member of a social democratic organisation like the Old Labour Party.

In any case the fact is that now organisations like the ILP and CPB don't exist, all we are left with is a tiny trotskyist rump. That's why I'd say that I struggle to think of time, taking into account more than just formal membership of formally far left groups, when the far left has been in a worse state.

 

[tbaldwin]

The LP leadership are extremely out of touch with "most people's" views TB. Look at all the polls. Look at the percentage of people who are satisfied with the government. Look at people's views on renationalisation of the railways, health, education, the war etc etc. I think you'll find that "most people" are closer to the far left than Blair and the LP leadership on these issues.

So matt given that most people myself included would like to see policies to the left of labour,it leads to the question of why so few people support/join organisations to the left of labour.
The general election showed very little to encourage anyone that any left organisation was going to grow.
RESPECT are still preety much insignificant apart from Tower hamlets and with a few other lefties.....
The number of votes cast for left parties nationally was as usual pathetic..

 

[redsquirrel]

So matt given that most people myself included would like to see policies to the left of labour,it leads to the question of why so few people support/join organisations to the left of labour.
The general election showed very little to encourage anyone that any left organisation was going to grow.
RESPECT are still preety much insignificant apart from Tower hamlets and with a few other lefties.....
The number of votes cast for left parties nationally was as usual pathetic..

Surely it doesn't really matter if people belong to parties or not if you are in favour of "socialism from below". What matters is the actions of the working class.

 

[tbaldwin]

RS
What actions ?

 

[redsquirrel]

RS
What actions ?

Actions that are based on solidarity. It can pretty much be anything - from strking or organising a local group to just keeping an eye out for your neighbours, etc, etc.

The important point I was making was that for someone who argues that the "far left" is too much top down you have a particuar fetish about parties and the number of members.

 

[tbaldwin]

Actions that are based on solidarity. It can pretty much be anything - from strking or organising a local group to just keeping an eye out for your neighbours, etc, etc.

The important point I was making was that for someone who argues that the "far left" is too much top down you have a particuar fetish about parties and the number of members.

Er Like Neighbourhood watch and stuff, are you a member?

It is not my fetish but i am interested in alternatives to the LP and why they have so little support.

 

[redsquirrel]

Er Like Neighbourhood watch and stuff, are you a member?

It is not my fetish but i am interested in alternatives to the LP and why they have so little support.

No I meant far more informally than that (and no I'm not a member of TNW)

 

[tbaldwin]

No I meant far more informally than that (and no I'm not a member of TNW)

I love my neighbours and they love me. My son is the same he got punched the other day and 40 people found the culprits and stabbed one in the leg....
But thats a different thread.....

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Workers Power has about 30 members in London and about 10 members in Leeds. Now considering we also have branches in Manchester, Newcastle, Leicester, Birmingham, Sheffield and members in various other places (such as Cardiff, Liverpool, Coventry, Bristol) then you can see how we have about 80 members. Why you are so concerned as to whether it is 40-50 or 80 I don't know, but there you go.

How big does a collection of local WPers have to be before it can be called a branch? If we follow the maths here some of these 'branches' will have less than 7 people in them. Is this really a branch or a branchlet or ,as the BNP say. a unit?By the time they have voted in the secretary, chair, treasurer , papersales organiser, education officer, membership secretary, social secretary etc there isn't a lot left of the rank and file mebership to tell what to do.

Also didn't WP claim to have more Asian members in London than the SWP. Unless over half are all Asian ( and mysteriously Cockers has never said that he is) would this claim stand up to scrutiny?

Judging by the amount of activity they generate I always thought Workers Powoer to be a lot smaller than they are. TBH if they got rid of the deadwood and 'social' members I think they might be smaller than that.And why are one eighth (according to Cockers figures) and 20% according to other figures of the national membership of WP posting on here? I think we should be told.

 

[audiotech]

The SWP claimed 4,000 in the late 70's. It was a fib (the Derbyshire miners camp in Skegness, where it held it's Skegness rally, was very poorly attended in 1978). A lot of it's membership then crumbled and either dropped out, or sped into the Labour party/Greens. During the early eighties the organisation saw a further smaller number quit the SWP and join Militant (in the North at least). I wonder where they all are now?

Whatever happened to the varius Maoist groups?

 

[belboid]

joined the Greens [Ecology Party]? In the late 70s? I find it hard to believe that many did that.

Whatever the actual start/high point figures for the SWP, I think it is fairly safe to say that paper membership did actual more than double, probably not far from treble, between mid-eighties and mid-nineties.

 

[audiotech]

joined the Greens [Ecology Party]? In the late 70s? I find it hard to believe that many did that.

Whatever the actual start/high point figures for the SWP, I think it is fairly safe to say that paper membership did actual more than double, probably not far from treble, between mid-eighties and mid-nineties.

Your probably right with the latter. As for the former? I don't think many did join the greens, but I know at least two who did circa 1980.

 

[neprimerimye]

2001 Mori poll for election:

http://www.mori.com/polls/2001/e010605.shtml

Scroll down to Q6-13a.

Most people support:

*increasing income tax to 50% for highest earners (57%)
*against single currency (58%)
*against private companies running state schools (62%)
*renationalisation of railways (72%)
*ban fox hunting (57%)
*proportional representation (62%)

Opposition to fox hunting is a right wing position.

 

[mk12]

Opposition to fox hunting is a right wing position.

Is it?

 

[ecadre]

The SWP claim 3500-4000 members now and the SP 2000. Both are laughable figures. In reality I should think the SWP have about 1500-2000 members and the SP about 600.

Everyone else is off the scale. CPB about 200 (mostly pensioners), AWL about 100, Workers Power about 80, ISG about 40, CPGB about 15-20, Anarchist Federation about 80, Sol Fed about 30, Class War about 30.

Haven't got a clue how many the SLP have got now days. But all in all, the groups outside the SWP and SP can't add up to more than about 1000.

The SSP have a few thousand.

The organised far left is smaller now in the UK than it has ever been in the last 100 years.

Where on earth did you get that figure for the CPB? You're just making things up off the top of your head.

 

[ecadre]

Bollox. My grandparents and their friends were in the CPB and they all believe in the need for a revolutionary change in society, even if they also had illusions in the parliamentary road. They certainly had very, very different ideas to your average member of a social democratic organisation like the Old Labour Party.

In any case the fact is that now organisations like the ILP and CPB don't exist, all we are left with is a tiny trotskyist rump. That's why I'd say that I struggle to think of time, taking into account more than just formal membership of formally far left groups, when the far left has been in a worse state.

Er, I think you're getting a bit confused over names. The name of the historical communist party in Britain was the Communist Party of Britain (CPGB). It was liquidated by right-wing infiltrators in 1991.

These days, sadly, it has to be pointed out that the loopy sectlet calling themselves the CPGB nowadays has no connection whatsoever with the historic organisation.

 

[gilhyle]

In other European countries where they have a fairer electoral system, the far left can get between 5 and 10% of the vote. Probably the high water mark, to date, was the vote for the three far left/revolutionary/trostkyist parties (two large ones - LO and LCR - and a very small one - PT), in the first round of the French Presidential election in 2002, where the combined vote was 10%, just under 3 million. All three parties were unambiguously 'far left'. The French CP (PCF), which has been a party of government, got only one third of the vote of the far left, the Greens got just over half, and the Socialists just over one and a half times (16% losing to Le Pen's fascists). So the far left represented about a quarter of the left wing vote.

In some other countries, broader coalitions involving the far left have done well or better - in Italy the 'refoundation communists' PCR, which includes both the far left and reformists got nearly 2 million votes (6%) last year in the european elections, while the PDS in Germany got 4 million (8%) in the recent general election. But I think France 2002 can be said to be the best showing for the far left on its own.

Best showing in EUROPE. Don't forget Indonesia, Peru, Vietnam etc. in days of lore.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Best showing in EUROPE. Don't forget Indonesia, Peru, Vietnam etc. in days of lore.

Apologies I should have said Europe at end as well as beginning. I'm looking forward to how P-SOL do in Brazil, 2006.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Bollox. My grandparents and their friends were in the CPB and they all believe in the need for a revolutionary change in society, even if they also had illusions in the parliamentary road. They certainly had very, very different ideas to your average member of a social democratic organisation like the Old Labour Party.

In any case the fact is that now organisations like the ILP and CPB don't exist, all we are left with is a tiny trotskyist rump. That's why I'd say that I struggle to think of time, taking into account more than just formal membership of formally far left groups, when the far left has been in a worse state.

I think you mean the CPGB. Different issue - there were thousands who considered themselves revolutionary. Many left after Kruschev's secret speech and the invasion of Hungary.

 

[exosculate]

What about non-aligned lefties in the Trade Unions and elsewhere - they must number more than the Trots by a long way. And are probably the biggest single group.

 

[ecadre]

In other European countries where they have a fairer electoral system, the far left can get between 5 and 10% of the vote. Probably the high water mark, to date, was the vote for the three far left/revolutionary/trostkyist parties (two large ones - LO and LCR - and a very small one - PT), in the first round of the French Presidential election in 2002, where the combined vote was 10%, just under 3 million. All three parties were unambiguously 'far left'. The French CP (PCF), which has been a party of government, got only one third of the vote of the far left, the Greens got just over half, and the Socialists just over one and a half times (16% losing to Le Pen's fascists). So the far left represented about a quarter of the left wing vote.

In some other countries, broader coalitions involving the far left have done well or better - in Italy the 'refoundation communists' PCR, which includes both the far left and reformists got nearly 2 million votes (6%) last year in the european elections, while the PDS in Germany got 4 million (8%) in the recent general election. But I think France 2002 can be said to be the best showing for the far left on its own.

Come on now, even if we just stick to Europe hw about a few others.


* AKEL in Cyprus - 34.7% of vote in the 2001 legislative elections.

* Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia (Czech Republic)
- 20.3% in 2004 European elections
- 20.5% in 2002 legislative elections

* Greek Communist Party - 9.5% in 2004 European elections
- 5.9% in 2004 legislative elections

* CDU in Portugal (main component being the Portugese Communist Party)
- 9.1% in 2004 European elections
- 7.6% in 2005 legislative elections

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Come on now, even if we just stick to Europe hw about a few others.


* AKEL in Cyprus - 34.7% of vote in the 2001 legislative elections.

* Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia (Czech Republic)
- 20.3% in 2004 European elections
- 20.5% in 2002 legislative elections

* Greek Communist Party - 9.5% in 2004 European elections
- 5.9% in 2004 legislative elections

* CDU in Portugal (main component being the Portugese Communist Party)
- 9.1% in 2004 European elections
- 7.6% in 2005 legislative elections

Doubt if you could regard any of these parties as being 'far left'.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

What about non-aligned lefties in the Trade Unions and elsewhere - they must number more than the Trots by a long way. And are probably the biggest single group.

In any walk of life the biggest single group is those who are not members of a group.

 

[neprimerimye]

Is it?

Yes opposition to fox hunting is rightist in that it seeks to limit the personal freedom of individuals.

That the fox hunters are engaged in an activity that is cruel and unneccesary is not germane to the issue as top whether it is or is not a left wing cause.

That much of the so called left gets all dewy eyed over foxes goes someway to explaining the irrelevance of that same so called left.

 

[neprimerimye]

Come on now, even if we just stick to Europe hw about a few others.


* AKEL in Cyprus - 34.7% of vote in the 2001 legislative elections.

* Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia (Czech Republic)
- 20.3% in 2004 European elections
- 20.5% in 2002 legislative elections

* Greek Communist Party - 9.5% in 2004 European elections
- 5.9% in 2004 legislative elections

* CDU in Portugal (main component being the Portugese Communist Party)
- 9.1% in 2004 European elections
- 7.6% in 2005 legislative elections

These left overs from Stalinism don't even qualify as reformist. The best they aspire to is a defence of the remaining state owned capital assets and limits on the elimination of welfare statism.