How Bad Do You Think it Will Get?

[ViolentPanda]

You might not know, but they do.

Actually, I doubt it. Bear in mind that some of the financial instruments that helped trigger the shit-storm aren't due to mature for a while yet, so the liabilities that'll be incurred when they do can't actually be calculated, or even guessed at.

 

[ViolentPanda]

VP - there's little point, fela's already made his mind up so any mechanical explanations of why the banks couldn't be allowed to go to the wall are to no avail.

I know, but sometimes you hope a little fact will get through the fog.

See, this shows how little you understand the current sitaution - no one knows what the potential liabilities are globally.

Yep. Anyone who claims different is guessing from a position of ignorance, even if they're a top economist (or should that be "especially if they're a top economist?").

 

[fela fan]

VP - there's little point, fela's already made his mind up so any mechanical explanations of why the banks couldn't be allowed to go to the wall are to no avail.

Funny this kyser. The only mind made up is yours that mine is made up. Funny again, my mind is never made up, it's always open to anyone who can explain things to me clearly.

And clearly it's your mind that's made up. Funny that. Why don't you just sit back and reflect for a minute that what you judge me for is in fact a reflection of your own mind?

 

[Dillinger4]

heh.

 

[fela fan]

See, this shows how little you understand the current sitaution - no one knows what the potential liabilities are globally.

ME??? I don't understand the current situation? Maybe not. But with what you say here you MOST CERTAINLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE CURRENT SITUATION.

Just how on earth can you say that 'no-one' knows the situation now? Of course they bloody do.

You're so wide of the mark in judging me that it's putting a huge new angle on hypocrisy.

 

[kyser_soze]

Funny this kyser. The only mind made up is yours that mine is made up. Funny again, my mind is never made up, it's always open to anyone who can explain things to me clearly.

And clearly it's your mind that's made up. Funny that. Why don't you just sit back and reflect for a minute that what you judge me for is in fact a reflection of your own mind?

Well, most of the posts on this thread seem to indicate that you've made your mind up about the banking situation being a bad thing, possibly even criminal, and that 'they' know stuff that we don't.

So you've 'already found out about it' - funny, because it doesn't come over in your posts...

 

[kyser_soze]

ME??? I don't understand the current situation? Maybe not. But with what you say here you MOST CERTAINLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE CURRENT SITUATION.

Just how on earth can you say that 'no-one' knows the situation now? Of course they bloody do.

You're so wide of the mark in judging me that it's putting a huge new angle on hypocrisy.

Learn-a to speak-a da inglizz.

No one knows what the potential liabilities are for any of the as yet unmatured products that are still out there - there could be trillions more, there could be nothing. No one knows.

That uncertainty is infact part of the problem that you supposedly understand.

 

[fela fan]

Well, most of the posts on this thread seem to indicate that you've made your mind up about the banking situation being a bad thing, possibly even criminal, and that 'they' know stuff that we don't.

So you've 'already found out about it' - funny, because it doesn't come over in your posts...

Oh bollocks man. The government have bailed them out to the tune of almost a whole year's worth of taxpayers' money. It's nothing to do with me making my mind up, just what has actually happened. Don't try and convert facts into my own opinions.

 

[kyser_soze]

Oh bollocks man. The government have bailed them out to the tune of almost a whole year's worth of taxpayers' money. It's nothing to do with me making my mind up, just what has actually happened. Don't try and convert facts into my own opinions.

Robbers: banks, police, MPs, big business.

That looks like a judgement to me...

You can't even get the bailout right - it's now worth about the UKs GDP, not the UK tax take...

 

[Dillinger4]

Learn-a to speak-a da inglizz.

No one knows what the potential liabilities are for any of the as yet unmatured products that are still out there - there could be trillions more, there could be nothing. No one knows.

That uncertainty is infact part of the problem that you supposedly understand.

The complexity and scale of that uncertainty is certainly difficult to get your head around.

I suppose it is just easier to fall back upon lazy clichés.

 

[fela fan]

That uncertainty is infact part of the problem that you supposedly understand.

Oh? You're talking about uncertainty suddenly are you kyser? Only just minutes ago you were appearing to be most certain... look, here you were:

"See, this shows how little you understand the current sitaution - no one knows what the potential liabilities are globally."

You even italicised the word 'no-one', showing just how emphatic you were. No one knows eh? How certain is that??

You're full of bullshit here mate.

 

[DotCommunist]

Is it time for jean-luc yet?

 

[kyser_soze]

Oh? You're talking about uncertainty suddenly are you kyser? Only just minutes ago you were appearing to be most certain... look, here you were:

"See, this shows how little you understand the current sitaution - no one knows what the potential liabilities are globally."

You even italicised the word 'no-one', showing just how emphatic you were. No one knows eh? How certain is that??

You're full of bullshit here mate.

You really don't understand any of this do you?

Don't you get it - the only certainty about the potential scale of what may come is that it's completely uncertain.

 

[Dillinger4]

Is it time for jean-luc yet?

Fela has surpassed jean-luc.

Why does it always end up this way for you, fela?

You have so much aggression.

 

[Meltingpot]

I think we're seeing the early stages of what J H Kunstler called "The Long Emergency."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Emergency

I'm reading his book at the moment, and in it he predicted the current banking crisis.

 

[fela fan]

You really don't understand any of this do you?

Don't you get it - the only certainty about the potential scale of what may come is that it's completely uncertain.

You're still rabbitting on about certainty?

Well, in your book i certainly don't understand any of this. Okay, fine. I'll just leave it to the pros like you kyser. You hardly encourage what might be called 'debate'.

I stand by what i have said: the banks are robbing us taxpayers blind. Via the actions of the government.

Now, show me how i'm wrong eh man?

 

[Dillinger4]

You're still rabbitting on about certainty?

Well, in your book i certainly don't understand any of this. Okay, fine. I'll just leave it to the pros like you kyser. You hardly encourage what might be called 'debate'.

I stand by what i have said: the banks are robbing us taxpayers blind. Via the actions of the government.

Now, show me how i'm wrong eh man?

His point is that nobody understands it.

Not you. Not him. Nobody knows. The only certainty here is the uncertainty of what is still going to happen.

It is really not complicated.

There is no need for all this aggression, really.

 

[kyser_soze]

Well, 'robbery' usually means that you stand no chance of ever seeing whatever has been taken again, whereas the bailouts are, in most cases, closer to a low interest loan (and in the case of RBS and Lloyds, potentially a money spinner when they're re-privatised in about 5 years) than the banks simply being given an enourmous pile of money and running off with it.

If you're referring to the obsecnities like Fred the Shred's pension, and the ongoing payments of bonuses etc, I'd agree that the Treasury in particular has been absolutely shite at picking people's contracts apart, but then if they'd simply turned round and refused to pay, all those concerned would be straight into court with lawsuits they'd win, costing the taxpayer even more becuase we'd be saddled with the court costs too.

However, the banking 'bail out' isn't simply throwing money into a black hole that it will never appear from again, which is what you're implying.

 

[fela fan]

Well, 'robbery' usually means that you stand no chance of ever seeing whatever has been taken again, whereas the bailouts are, in most cases, closer to a low interest loan (and in the case of RBS and Lloyds, potentially a money spinner when they're re-privatised in about 5 years) than the banks simply being given an enourmous pile of money and running off with it.

If you're referring to the obsecnities like Fred the Shred's pension, and the ongoing payments of bonuses etc, I'd agree that the Treasury in particular has been absolutely shite at picking people's contracts apart, but then if they'd simply turned round and refused to pay, all those concerned would be straight into court with lawsuits they'd win, costing the taxpayer even more becuase we'd be saddled with the court costs too.

However, the banking 'bail out' isn't simply throwing money into a black hole that it will never appear from again, which is what you're implying.

I'm not talking about fred at all. And the government should have absolutely fuck all to do with this man. He works for a private company.

I'm talking about how the banks are being given fucking shedloads of the taxpayers' money man. It's clear as day what i'm talking about!

It's the main reason why i came on this thread to contribute. If the british government can just about give over the whole year's worth of taxpayers' earnings to a couple of banks to 'save' them, then the country is looking somewhat fucked in my view.

That's all.

 

[kyser_soze]

I'm not talking about fred at all. And the government should have absolutely fuck all to do with this man. He works for a private company.

I'm talking about how the banks are being given fucking shedloads of the taxpayers' money man. It's clear as day what i'm talking about!

It's the main reason why i came on this thread to contribute. If the british government can just about give over the whole year's worth of taxpayers' earnings to a couple of banks to 'save' them, then the country is looking somewhat fucked in my view.

That's all.

Not. A. Fucking. Clue.

Even your first line - Fred no longer works for a private company, he worked for RBS, one of the banks that has benefitted most from the govt support to the banking sector, indeed, he was one of those who most strongly advocated the whole model of risky-debt based banking that has led to the current problems.

As for the rest of your post, I see that you haven't really

already found it out thanks mate.

at all.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Learn-a to speak-a da inglizz.

No one knows what the potential liabilities are for any of the as yet unmatured products that are still out there - there could be trillions more, there could be nothing. No one knows.

That uncertainty is infact part of the problem that you supposedly understand.

The only thing we do know for certain is that there are unmatured financial instruments out there. How toxic they will or won't be is anyone's guess.

 

[kyser_soze]

It's a known unknown, in fact.

 

[Dillinger4]

It's a known unknown, in fact.

heh.

I had Rumsfeld in mind whilst reading this thread.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oh? You're talking about uncertainty suddenly are you kyser? Only just minutes ago you were appearing to be most certain... look, here you were:

You do realise that it is possible to be certain that there is uncertainty, don't you?

 

[fela fan]

yeah, whatever kyser. Life's hardly that serious really. Our long time incommunicado seems hardly to have been missed. It's a pity i even bothered your consciousness man. I apologise for this misdemeanour.

Not. A. Fucking. Clue.

Sort yourself out lad. Even stupid people, even people in the loony bin have a clue.

Fred's employed by the state is he? Salary paid by the state is he? Well then, that would make brown's decision nice and easy: withdraw the robber's pension.

Oh, no? Why not then?

 

[fela fan]

You do realise that it is possible to be certain that there is uncertainty, don't you?

What do you think VP?

 

[Dillinger4]

heh.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oh bollocks man. The government have bailed them out to the tune of almost a whole year's worth of taxpayers' money. It's nothing to do with me making my mind up, just what has actually happened. Don't try and convert facts into my own opinions.

The "bail-out" isn't a bail out, it's the purchase of an equity stake in an asset, and socially it was a damn good move too, except for people who get off on the idea of hundreds of thousands of homeless families sleeping rough. Stop concentrating on the money and start concentrating on the motivation(s). The motivations may not be "all good", but some serve a good purpose, and if the best way to prevent partial social collapse is the government buying stakes in banks, then I'm for rather than against it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There is no need for all this aggression, really.

Standard fela tactic. That and the self-righteousness.

 

[Dillinger4]

Standard fela tactic. That and the self-righteousness.

Yep.

Same old.