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How are we going to get rid of Hoey

Discussion in 'Brixton' started by ash, Apr 21, 2017.

  1. redsquirrel

    redsquirrel This Machine Kills Progressives

    What am I exaggerating? Are you denying the policies your party implemented when in government did not redistributed money from the poor to the rich?

    I don't think the Greens are neo-nazi's but I do think the employing scab labour makes you scum. And I'm not and haven't been a member of LU or any other political party for that matter.
     
  2. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    As CH1 is my neighbour, I hope he won't mind me saying, from what he has put up in his windows he is supporting Greens this time around. A well known local. Rashid Nix. Who I know and is good guy imo.
     
  3. Winot

    Winot I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint

    Are the communist party putting up a candidate in Vauxhall?
     
  4. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    In some ways the Hoey/ Brexit issue is a distraction. What is happening to Vauxhall is that it's becoming a home for the super rich. As are large parts of central London. Yes I would prefer a communist government that dealt with the super rich - permanent removal. As the main parties have shown themselves incapable of doing anything.

    I cycle by Vauxhall every day. Find it nauseating to see that large tower. The penthouse flat owned by a Ukrainian Oligarch. I'd like a communist government that got rid of people like this and there penthouse flats.
     
    lefteri likes this.
  5. CH1

    CH1 "Red Guard"(NLYL)

    No - I posted the list a while back. There is the Pirate Party, the Women's Equality Party, the Green Party, Lib Dems, Tory and Labour.

    From talking to a couple of TUSC people recently it appears there is some sort of agreement with such groups not to oppose Labour this time - presumably because for the first time since 1983 the Labour manifesto is to some extent socialist.

    I haven't studied it in depth yet - but yesterday there was a FREE edition of the Morning Star which is very anti Tory and pro Corbyn, which kind of underlines what I just said above.

    There are several mainstream reports that the Communist Party are not opposing Labour this time such as Communist Party tells its voters to back Jeremy Corbyn as it fields no candidate (don't hold me responsible for the spin - the Metro is closely allied to the Daily Mail remember!)
     
    Gramsci likes this.
  6. CH1

    CH1 "Red Guard"(NLYL)

    You sound like the type of person Neil Kinncok was talking about in his famous rant:
    "I'll tell you what happens with impossible promises. You start with far fetched resolutions. They are then pickled into a rigid dogma, a code, and you go through the years sticking to that, out-dated, misplaced, irrelevant to the real needs, and you end in the grotesque chaos of a Labour council—a Labour council—hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers. I'm telling you - and you'll listen - you can't play politics with people's jobs and with people's services. The people will not abide posturing."
     
    Winot likes this.
  7. CH1

    CH1 "Red Guard"(NLYL)

    Hoey vs Liberals is unlikely to degenerate to the situation in Manchester I guess. That well known friend of the left Guido Fawkes picked up tweets from "Rasheed Stalin" including the picture below. That Twitter account has been closed (I checked). Guido has three tweets saved there showing Labour supporters who go round nicking and destroying posters from gardens in south Manchester.

    Reminds me of election tactics in the 1970s!
    leech1.jpg
    Balaclava-Clad Corbynistas Steal LibDem Placards - Guido Fawkes
     
  8. redsquirrel

    redsquirrel This Machine Kills Progressives

    That would be the shit Kinnock that sold out the miner's. Quite happy to be on the opposite side to that cunt.

    And it's utterly pathetic to claim that not increase VAT or not employing scab labour are impossible promises. So are you denying that you party was part of a coalition government that redistributed wealth from the poor to the rich? Or are you accruing that they had no choice but to do that?
     
  9. CH1

    CH1 "Red Guard"(NLYL)

    As Gramsci pointed out I'm a Green Party member. Were we part of a coalition?

    I do not believe in Bipolar politics - that is the way of madness.

    I believe in the Single Transferable Vote as used in the Republic of Ireland (and I think in Northern Ireland - though not allowed in mainland Britain).

    I believe in negotiation and coalition.

    I think that monolithic party government is disastrous - look at the state of Lambeth right now on libraries and estate regeneration.

    Southwark is even worse on estates - though less bad apparently on libraries.

    As regards national politics - if I was in Vauxhall I would vote for George Turner Lib Dem.

    I will vote for Rashid Nix in my own constituency - I am very familiar with his views, he has run on a number of occasions at national and council level.

    If I was in Streatham I might vote Green or Lib Dem. One factor that would influence me is if one or other 3rd party candidates might lose their deposit. I think it is iniquitous that parties have to pay £500 to stand in an election. Deposits plus advertising costs push us towards an American system where there are only two parties, both appealing to big business.
     
  10. redsquirrel

    redsquirrel This Machine Kills Progressives

    OK, sorry I thought you said you were a member of the LibDems. As for the rest it doesn't address anything I've raised, what is bipolar politics, other than a soundbite? If it's condemning using scab labour than I welcome being bipolar.
     
  11. Winot

    Winot I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint

    I'm increasingly of the view that the biggest divide in politics is between those who adopt principle as their guiding light and those who are prepared to compromise - ditch principle if you like - to achieve the least bad outcome.

    The pure principled position is in a way the easiest. You can refuse to vote for anyone who does not abide by your principled views. However unless your principled views are held by the majority, then result is that the muddy centre ground gets into power (in one flavour or another). In fact it can be worse than that - you can end up with Tories rather than Labour - even if Labour are closer to the Tories than to your pure position on the left.
     
  12. CH1

    CH1 "Red Guard"(NLYL)

    Bipolar politics is a soundbite I just created.

    By the way I agree with Ken Livingstone that Mayors are unnecessary. As he said there was nothing he did as Mayor than he couldn't have done as leader of the GLC. This is another example of Blairite centralisation now taken up by the Tories. In a way Mayors are locally elected Barons - easier to deal with than a democratic assembly.
     
  13. CH1

    CH1 "Red Guard"(NLYL)

    That is not wholly logical (IMHO). That is rather like the idea that you always vote Labour even if they close your libraries etc because you don't want the Tories (who might get in if you voted TUSC for example).

    There was a boy whose name was Jim
    His friends were very good to him
    They gave him tea and cakes and jam
    And slices of delicious ham
    And chocolate with pink inside
    And little tricycles to ride
    They read him stories through and through
    And even took him to the zoo
    But there it was the awful fate
    Befell him, which I now relate
    You know (at least you ought to know
    For I have often told you so)
    That children never are allowed
    To leave their nurses in a crowd
    Now this was Jim's especial foible
    He ran away when he was able
    And on this inauspicious day
    He slipped his hand and ran away
    He hadn't gone a yard when BANG
    With open jaws a lion sprang
    And hungrily began to eat
    The boy, beginning at his feet
    Now just imagine how it feels
    When first your toes and then your heels
    And then by varying degrees
    Your shins and ankles, calves and knees
    Are slowly eaten bit by bit
    No wonder Jim detested it
    No wonder that he shouted "Ai"
    The honest keeper heard his cry
    Though very fat, he almost ran
    To help the little gentleman
    "Ponto," he ordered as he came
    For Ponto was the lion's name
    "Ponto," he said with angry frown
    "Down sir, let go, put it down!"
    The lion made a sudden stop
    He let the dainty morsel drop
    And slunk reluctant to his cage
    Snarling with disappointed rage
    But when he bent him over, Jim
    The honest keeper's eyes grew dim
    The lion having reached his head
    The miserable boy was dead
    When nurse informed his parents they
    Were more concerned than I can say
    His mother as she dried her eyes
    Said "It gives me no surprise
    He would not do as he was told."
    His father who was self-controlled
    Bade all the children round attend
    To James's miserable end.
    And always keep ahold of nurse
    For fear of finding something worse.

    Belloc, H.
     
  14. Winot

    Winot I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint

    That is precisely the idea that I am (reluctantly) coming round to. It depends of course how close the risk is of the Tories getting in.
     
  15. lefteri

    lefteri Well-Known Member

    Ironically it was kinnock that parachuted Kate hoey into the seat over the candidate chosen by the local party

    I wouldn't listen to anything that man has to say, the beginning of the rot setting into labour if you ask me
     
  16. CH1

    CH1 "Red Guard"(NLYL)

    This is the art of tactical voting. I don't know if you were around in 1997 but there was an organisation called Charter 88 which gave guidance on how to vote in each and every constituency to get rid of the conservatives. It could be that they had an effect - can it all be down to Tony Blair's magnetic personality?
     
  17. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    I disagree with this. I don't think juxtaposing principled Vs compromisers stands up. The present muddy centre ground is a product of Thatcherism. Thatcher, for all I disagree with her, stuck to her "principles". She not only transformed the Tory party she also transformed the "common sense" of politics. As my name sske would say.

    Thatcher as no compromiser.

    Blair's "Third Way" political project was underlined by the work of theorists like Giddens. As well as the "end of history" of Fukuyama.

    Can be categorised as a "principled" position.

    As I've posted elsewhere the Evening Standard under Osborne has made an argument for continuing the "centre" ground. A Blairite Labour party and Cameronite Tory party. This appeared to be the culmination of the "end of history" thesis. Politics run by who would best manage Capitalism. So called neo liberal Capitalism. Socially liberal and economically neo liberal. ( Free markets, privatisation, free movement of capital and people , when that suits capital.)


    This had failed here and in US.

    My point is two things. That the "centre" ground was not "muddy". It was a coherent ideological position. "Principled". It's failed.

    As I know redsquirrel has questioned the idea that the centre ground is liberal.

    I would agree with this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
    redsquirrel likes this.
  18. Winot

    Winot I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint

    I think that you are talking about the politicians and I am talking about the voters. Most ordinary voters do not concern themselves with political theory. Most people vote with a mixture of self-interest, habit and principle. Their vote is a compromise - they talk about the 'least worst'. Most people are not members of political parties.

    Anyway, interesting - thank you. I shall think more about what you've said.
     
  19. tim

    tim Well-Known Member

    Ramsey McDonald was a rotter long before Kinnock
     
    lefteri likes this.
  20. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    I was replying to your opinion stated in your post. You are now extending your view onto "ordinary" voters.

    On compromise. Fair number of left groups are saying to vote Labour. Not take a "pure" position. Support Labour party as Tories are worse. But not uncritical support.

    I'm wary of this "ordinary" voter line. Evening Standard has been doing this in it's commentator pages. That the increase in membership of Labour party under Corbyn is to be discounted as these aren't "ordinary" people.

    Of course it's well known tactic of the right to smear those who are left of centre as not part of the mainstream.
     
  21. Winot

    Winot I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint

    My original post was about voters not politicians.

    Good call on the left groups supporting Labour.
     
  22. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    Who are these "ordinary voters"? I come across a wide range of opinions. From wanting this country to be more like Cuba and someone I know wanting to bring back National Service. Both ordinary (working class) people I know who aren't in political parties. I don't see either of them interested in the " muddy " political centre.

    Saw the Economist magazine had front page asking where the political centre had gone. (Btw the political centre was never that liberali if you are working class. )As the Blairites found out. They thought the old class lines had gone for good. The traditional working class were a residual rump who could be ignored. Politics was based around the middle ground.

    Unfortunately for the advocates of the middle ground the working class didn't dissappear.

    In a small way I can see this in Loughborough Junction. The Loughborough Council estate residents felt they have for years been treated with contempt by "centre" politicians.

    The rise of so called populist politics of right and left is due to this.
     
  23. Gramsci

    Gramsci Well-Known Member

    Saw Kate out canvassing today.
     
  24. CH1

    CH1 "Red Guard"(NLYL)

    Things aren't what they used to be.
    Look at the list of candidates when she got in first in 1989:
    Vauxhall byelection 1989.jpg
     
  25. Orang Utan

    Orang Utan Sub-Sub-Librarian

  26. The39thStep

    The39thStep Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbour?

    Tim Farron urging people to vote for Lib Dems to oust a Labour MP .Itll be interesting to see how depraved Remainers are to back the Tories bedfellows.
     
  27. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    What a foul image.
     
  28. Reiabuzz

    Reiabuzz Well-Known Member

    Interesting read. Very depressing last para though as I'm hearing it's pretty much been called for her.

     
  29. CH1

    CH1 "Red Guard"(NLYL)

    The main point for me is that this system of first past the post always as a tendecy to avoid innovation and to impose top-down government.
    A proportional voting system would mean a wider choice.

    By the way my understanding is that Mrs May and the Tory party are keen to remove the proportional element in local government - so you certainly will never see PR used in Manchester Council for example, and I imagine the GLA may well be "reformed" to strip out the third party representation we currently have.

    I appreciate it is not compulsory to retire any more - but Kate Hoey at 71 has had a fair innings. Retiring on an inflation-proof parliamentary pension to her luxury pad in St Katherine's Dock is surely ample reward for buggering up the county for the next 50 years!
     
  30. donkyboy

    donkyboy Crazy cat man

    I voted Lib Dem today to try get rid of Hoey. My gripe with her primarily being her stance supporting fox hunting. :mad:
     

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