how a people can slide into fascism and barbarism
- Thread starter treelover
- Start date
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
8ball said:
fuckin-A.
invisibleplanet
porter des cornes
Who said that anything about 'general national wave of hatred'?durruti02 said:
What does it mean when you say "facts are not there" for something not claimed?
You're obviously making this up as you go along.durruti02 said:
Like I said, you're obviously making it up as you go along.durruti02 said:
Bring other barbarisms into this by all means. I'm more than willing to discuss them. However, trying to imply that I don't care makes you look tricksy.durruti02 said:
YOU, yes YOU were the one who made this post: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=6921787&postcount=29.durruti02 said:
(And yes, I'm aware that I asked treelover if they'd had some kind of gnosis in the light of the quotes from Meyer - a valid question to ask, imo, given treelovers attitudes to rise in Islamophobia and Judeophobia and taking into account Meyer's quotes about Niemoller's observations about his own and the public's response to Nazi treatment of leftists and Jews and other minority groups in Germany at the time).
Responses to you were mainly addressing the claims you made about racism in your post-29.
Other issues were raised about how w/c movements (mass movements), decrease in civil liberties since (well, the 1980s really), - that brilliant post above by 8ball - you could have chosen those to discuss instead of going off half-cocked, because other good points were raised before you made your post-29.
You admit you were "generalising" - you even made something up and claimed another poster had said it, and you've done that before, haven't you. By all means, do continue to lash out blindly at the narrow-stereotypes you've created/accepted of 'leftists', although you do seem confused to me.
*sigh*
sigh indeed but it was you who raised a 'wave of hatred against muslims' .. in your derailing post 11 .. (you also claim to be resisting it) ..
i apologise unreservedly if i have you wrong .. if you do not believe there was a 'wave of hatred against muslims' after 9/11 etc and if you also do not have sympathy or agree with the idea there is a 'war on muslims'
sorry but i have judged you on your cowardly attacks on me by pm to me ( p.s. i offerred to debate your 'opinions' in public but you would not ) and to other posters as well!
and also by your posting / thread history that shows no interest at all in the plight of people in this country (of whatever background .. except muslims) but purely an interest in defending palestinians ( fair play) and iran!
the internet does not tell us all about a person and i am probably wrong to judge you on your recent posting history but i/we have no other option ( i pmed you back with
s and attempts at human communication .. you rebuffed me and hold to your nationalist/'smear artist' 'theory' of me .. )
and so sorry treelover i have helped IP to derail your thread
i apologise unreservedly if i have you wrong .. if you do not believe there was a 'wave of hatred against muslims' after 9/11 etc and if you also do not have sympathy or agree with the idea there is a 'war on muslims'
sorry but i have judged you on your cowardly attacks on me by pm to me ( p.s. i offerred to debate your 'opinions' in public but you would not ) and to other posters as well!
and also by your posting / thread history that shows no interest at all in the plight of people in this country (of whatever background .. except muslims) but purely an interest in defending palestinians ( fair play) and iran!
the internet does not tell us all about a person and i am probably wrong to judge you on your recent posting history but i/we have no other option ( i pmed you back with
s and attempts at human communication .. you rebuffed me and hold to your nationalist/'smear artist' 'theory' of me .. ) and so sorry treelover i have helped IP to derail your thread
Spion
I hear ya
I wouldn't for one second downplay any act of hatred and violence towards anyone. Sadly, in response to the demonstrable increase in verbal and physical attacks on Asians/Muslims in the current climate, you have done.durruti02 said:
The last time I had to post up instances of racial attacks as proof on a bulletin board discussion, it was when talking to a BNP member. I'm staggered I'm having to do the same in discussion with a supposed working class activist.
Spion said:
you criticise me for apologising?
i am one of the few on here who does! i get carried away .. but i try to sort it .. so yes i went in two feet off the ground studs showing on this thread ... I was pissed off that when TL had started a thread on one thing IP came in as she did .. she had a point .. but the way she did it was offensive to my mindi then, i accept again, made the mistake of emphasising one thing to the detriment of another. stupid really cos this is actually what i am criticising, but i am not the first to do it to make a point ..
but my essential point still stands .. yes while i accept absolutely there has been a a " demonstrable increase in verbal and physical attacks on Asians/Muslims in the current climate" ( with also an increase in anti-Jewish attacks) I do not think it is of a level as IP says of ' a wave of hatred' or as others have said ' a war on muslims' ( i believe Galloway used this expression and no doubt his supportters followed). It appears that sections of the left have operated on this basis ..
i look at these boards and threads and posters like yourself and IP and a majority of those who call themselves of the left and you/they demonstrate ( on your thread starting and posting histories) that you are far far far more interested in the events in palestine/iraq than your own streets ..
not only that but when people cricticise this, I/we, are called nationalists and it is hinted are racists and BNP! Incredible! For the honest belief that the best place to chnage the world, for ALL, is to start is 'at home', locallywhere we live and work, to build from there! Yes I criticise differrent strategies but I do not lower my self to abuse as IP did in her pms.
and my stats stand. there is not evidence of a 'wave of hatred' .. as i showed there is a very high level of violence in our society .. in that context the very real violence against Muslims does not relate to the level of political response shown by the left .. YET we do have a real war in this country .. that sees kids being stabbed and killed by the week .. yet i have never seen ANY comment from you or IP about this.
As i said i appreciate the humanist response at seeing IDF bombs hitting lebanon ( maybe i also should be clearer about that before i criticise the tactics people employ) .. BUT if that humanism does not also encompass the trouble making kids at the end of the street, the old women no one helps with her shopping, the guy slipping into alcoholism in the pub, and the batterred wife AS well as the asylum seeker and abused muslim then imho it is not a full humanist repsonse .. and i see a left in this country that the vast majority of people do not even get on their radar.
p.s. your point about the BNP is illuminating .. for while you and the left concentrate on the violence directed to a tiny proportion of society the BNP are concentrating on issues that affect the vast majority .. with predictable sad and dangerous results ..
invisibleplanet
porter des cornes
Restoring the first quote that treelover made, but removed after I asked if this thread meant they had had some kind of gnosis re. attitudes to Muslims:
I fail to see why bringing up media-whipped-up attitudes to Muslims and the degeneration into violence and abuse since 2001 is in anyway irrelevant to this thread - the first quote treelover posted, which I had to repost after treelover removed it, referred to "jewish swine". Is that not relevant into how a whole societies attitudes were turned against a scapegoat? I think it was relevant. I stand by my question to treelover about whether they'd had a gnosis about attitudes to Muslims (seen to be accompanied by swipes at the SWP/Respect and others on 'the left' who are in solidarity with our British Muslims). I know that treelover already understands how scapegoating works, that's obvious from their posting history - it was the anti-Islamic aspect of scapegoating that I felt was missing there.
Immigrants too have become the target of w/c ire and panic re. availability of jobs - the scapegoating serves to redirect ire from the government, to a targetted people. It's not only directed against Muslims who have, like Jews in Nazi Germany, been described as a fifth column in 'our midst' by Daily Mail writer and darling of BNP Leader Nick Griffin, Melanie Phillips, but now we're hearing of (in national press) the horrific backlash against Polish immigrants, which has been getting worse bubbling since 2004. (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=235116). Treelover, afaik, doesn't deny this - only you durruti02.
The situation that w/c Brits find themselves in is neither the fault of the Muslims nor the fault of the Poles or other immigrants.
Explain to me why that paragraph from Meyer is not relevant - I'm all ears.
invisibleplanet said:
I fail to see why bringing up media-whipped-up attitudes to Muslims and the degeneration into violence and abuse since 2001 is in anyway irrelevant to this thread - the first quote treelover posted, which I had to repost after treelover removed it, referred to "jewish swine". Is that not relevant into how a whole societies attitudes were turned against a scapegoat? I think it was relevant. I stand by my question to treelover about whether they'd had a gnosis about attitudes to Muslims (seen to be accompanied by swipes at the SWP/Respect and others on 'the left' who are in solidarity with our British Muslims). I know that treelover already understands how scapegoating works, that's obvious from their posting history - it was the anti-Islamic aspect of scapegoating that I felt was missing there.
Immigrants too have become the target of w/c ire and panic re. availability of jobs - the scapegoating serves to redirect ire from the government, to a targetted people. It's not only directed against Muslims who have, like Jews in Nazi Germany, been described as a fifth column in 'our midst' by Daily Mail writer and darling of BNP Leader Nick Griffin, Melanie Phillips, but now we're hearing of (in national press) the horrific backlash against Polish immigrants, which has been getting worse bubbling since 2004. (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=235116). Treelover, afaik, doesn't deny this - only you durruti02.
The situation that w/c Brits find themselves in is neither the fault of the Muslims nor the fault of the Poles or other immigrants.
Explain to me why that paragraph from Meyer is not relevant - I'm all ears.
invisibleplanet said:
see above post "I was pissed off that when TL had started a thread on one thing IP came in as she did .. she had a point .. but the way she did it was offensive to my mind" .. note the 'she had a point' .. yes an interesting point and so it is relevent but it was your attitude and liberal use of the word 'shite' i disgreed with
"The situation that w/c Brits find themselves in is neither the fault of the Muslims nor the fault of the Poles or other immigrants." .. find me someone on U75 who thinks it is ..
DJ Squelch
King Of Insides
Does anyone remember the "5 steps to tyranny" documentary shown a few years ago. That was quite interesteing about how easy it was to make people act like cunts to other humans.
invisibleplanet
porter des cornes
You're making it up as you go along. He of the countless immigration threads. Yours is not a valid 'complaint here given your own posting history - you bang on and on and on and on and on about the same subject over and over again (immigration/the left/durruti02's 'inability' to organise anything whilst criticising the organisational ability of others).durruti02 said:
I already have dramatically changed the locality where I live/d.durruti02 said:
But what the flying fuck does that have to do with this thread on individual and societal complicity in scapegoating 'non-Christians/immigrants/dissidents/leftists/disabled/'aliens'?
What do your criticisms of me have to do with the article posted in the OP on perpetrators, victims, and bystanders?
It's cowardly to refer to PMs that cannot be discussed in public, IMO. My PMs to you were perfectly polite until you asked if you could publish them, I said NO, you pressed me on publishing, and the worst thing I said to you in those PMs was "Don't you fucking railroad me" which is what you were doing, and which I'm sure others will forgive me for saying even if you don't. I DID NOT want those pm's publishing and you pushed me to publish them.durruti02 said:
Now I see you have referred to parts of them in public against my wishes in a thread where there is little if no relevance to the OP (the thread they sprang from is here: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=6866109#post6866109).
Then you attack me by unprovable inferences supposedly on the basis of my posting history (but click that last link and you'll see how wrong your inferences are). And all because I called someone's consistent attitude towards Islam 'shite' (which it was/is and which also includes you, durruti02 and a few others) - and that brings us neatly back to the OP and the removed quote which included the words 'JEWISH SWINE' - originally, and at the time of my comment, the first quote in this thread, leading to the valid question of whether the thread-starter has had some kind of gnosis (Niemoller style).
I will call such attitudes shite, and will continue to do so. I didn't call treelover 'shite', just recalled their previous attitude here towards Muslims and called that 'shite', and I hope that their posting of this thread is a result of their changing attitude to Muslims.
Please don't underestimate my hostility to perpetrators and bystanders - my family has been victimised by this type of thinking for generations now. It's part of my history, I refuse to be called by you for my solidarity with my British Muslim 'cousins', given the persecution Jews, Leftists and dissidents had suffered at the hands of the Nazis.
If you don't think there's been an upsurge in hostility towards muslims (and jews and poles and immigrants and asylum seekers) in the past few years then you need your head examining. You appear to be twisting reality to suit your political position.durruti02 said:
Again, here you quote something I'd asked you not to quote from a pm which I refused you permission to publish in a thread where it bears no relevance.durruti02 said:
What solidarity can there be with someone who views immigrants as a fifth column undermining British society - as you do!
My humanism does extend to those things you mentioned above, and has done countless times over the last 25 years of life since leaving school.
How many youth projects have you been involved with? In how many areas? How many youth schemes have you kick started in areas where post-Thatcherite social decay has decimated a once-cohesive and supportive community? How many childcare schemes have you begun to enable single mums to raise their income by getting off the dole in the 90s before Child Tax Credits stopped us starving? How many anti-bully projects have you begun? How many urban spaces have you attempted to regenerate to play areas for children who don't want to, for whatever reason, to be at home in the evening or even near another adult (making youth-clubs/projects inaccessible to them)?
Do not answer these questions in this thread. Make a thread to discuss these if you truly care - dare to deviate from your anti-immigration track - if you dare.
This thread is about how a people descended both individually and societally (en masse) into the scapegoating and abusing those perceived not to be 'nationals' in their culture.
My comments were therefore relevant, and not a derail, and I'd like to return to discussing the article posted immediately. Please send any further off-topic comments to me by PM.
invisibleplanet
porter des cornes
Sounds fascinating, I wasn't aware of that. Any chance it might be available somewhere on the internet?DJ Squelch said:
invisibleplanet said:
"Five Steps to Tyranny" BBC2, 2000.
Hannah Arendt and "the banality of evil."
Stanford prison experiment.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
kyser_soze said:
you're comparing cheese and bricks here. there are more than one way of wrecking an economy and enslaving a people. what's happening here is vastly different, and it's different from nazi germany. our governments are all motivated by different aspectrs of power and control. but just because our descent into social control and authoritarianism isn't the same as zim's or indeed traditional fascist states doesn't mean it isn't happening.
a good thread, though i'm never entirely sure of treelover's motivations i think we can all, no matter our politics, learn from that post and the links.
Re the OP: I'm more or less convinced that quite a lot of people have been chucked off income support in certain areas, and then chucked off jobseeker's for failing to find work, because they couldn't, - and I reckon quite a lot of them have died since.
I can't prove it, but I'm reasonably convinced.
I can't prove it, but I'm reasonably convinced.
invisibleplanet
porter des cornes
Thanks - watching now (I love Mr.Christie's channel)yield said:
I'll address the remainder of your post later, yield.
8ball said:
Yes. I claimed income support for a couple of years. I came across lots of people who had their payments stopped without explanation, including myself, four times in the space of three months, twice immediately after I'd managed to get it reinstated. It was virtually impossible to get anyone on the phone to talk to. I probably only managed to get mine reinstated because i'm articulate. But the phones were still set up in such a way that first of all you had a menu, and then when you selected your choice, you were put through to either an engaged tone or a phone that was never answered. So, of course that meant that all calls were charged. Once after a hundred rings or so, someone picked up and I asked him why it took so long to answer, -- (I happened to be staying right near the jobseeker's centre, so I could use the free phone without having to take a bus to go there) He told me he'd picked it up as soon as it rang. When I was cut off in the middle of winter 2005, the second time, while I was homeless, it was because they sent a form out to the wrong address. This was strange as they'd also sent post to the right contact address. But, it turned out that for some mysterious reason, the street number had got altered on the system by one digit, so it never got replied to, so cut off, ((and that was right after I just got it reinstated, so I didn't notice myself going well overdrawn)
If I hadn't been allowed a large overdraft by my bank, which most people arent', then I'm pretty certain I wouldn't have survived the winter. I was in any case very depressed and suicidal at the time, and I won't tell you what happened the rest of that winter but it wasn't much fun.
I met enough people at the time who'd been cut off jobseekers and were homeless, but didn't have work, just getting by, squatting or whatever. Some can make it some go under.
Near Waterloo station on the nearest bridge, I saw a little sign, saying RIP about some homeless man who froze to death there, asking people to remember him, and adding, he was one of thousands.
.
8ball said:
Well, believe it or not, at the time, I thought it was a bit of a story, contacted my MP, wrote to newspapers, would you believe it, they never even replied.
invisibleplanet
porter des cornes
treelover said:
It was a good read, but I have a critique to make.
Meyer's article, appears to be making a typical social democratic argument, that people *should* identify with the government, that the government and people should be as one (impossible, and also quite unachievable, imo, although government is in reality quite uneccessary and not needed to keep our communities going).
Furthermore, the problem was not a division between the people and their government, but a synthesis of the people and the government.
Meyer recommends "the cause" (nationalist identification) as "the cure": "the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people".
The cure this author recommends is a well informed populace that understands government and the people as mirror reflections of one another.
The problem of the nazis, (Meyer suggests), is that people didn't see what was going on because of a divide between the people and the government (I don't buy that, given the crushing of mass movements prior to '33, and the crushing of dissent, organised or individual post '33).
Meyer says: "This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised . . ." - which is essentially a claim that if government and the people had been one, then the descent into fascism and barbarism couldn't have happened. (Again, I don't buy that, it can take only a few men with guns and a few exhortations *from government* over the radio to create a massacre of one's neighbours in economically or politically difficult times).
However, it was the problems that the people experienced (joblessness, recession, struggle for basics - food-handouts etc, that assisted the nazis in manipulating the public through the manipulation of symbols and the people were very manipulated by a coordinated set of government bureaus - for example: if *we* regain some coal fields; *we* do better when statues are erected; *we* do better when music is played that reminds us of our common culture (inference against the alien culture of the semite, the dissident, the communist ,the homosexual, the disabled, the non-national); *we* do better when the Poles become Germans.
Maybe it is a problem of the German left that they don't want to recognise that national identification is part of the problem, and possibly this inability to recognise that national identification *is* part of the problem is not unique to German left either.
Basically, this article recommends the cause as a cure since it recommends nationalistic identification as 'the cure'.
invisibleplanet said:
sorry but i do have to answer some inaccuracies in this post in public .. particularly re this which i have to answer in public as it is ludicrous to suggest i am someone " who views immigrants as a fifth column undermining British society - as you do!"
but i have replied in pm and hope our disagreement can be resolved .. all i would add is that what you have done in your area is EXACTLY what i am arguing that the left should be involved in so yet again i do not see your hostility to me
re the OP i accept your points .. i totally dispute treelover is how you see him however .. what you are seeing is people very similar politically to yourself but who simply think that having a left that concentrates on the victimis in society will not neccessarryly resolve the issues that cause the problems in the first case .. i we wish to help those vicyims as much as you we just think there is a better way to go about it .. it in NO way underestimating the harm being caused BUt it simply wishes to remind of the deep levels of violence endemic in our society which frankly the left ignore imho but youclearly judging from your community work do ..
i hope you accept my apologies for having kick offed and hope can try to understand why,and that that we are coming from the same place but have differrent tactics
re the OP proper finally i think spion is correct to say, as i think he did, that there needs to be more of an analysis as to what was going on in german society .. see next post
http://sandiego.indymedia.org/media/2007/02/125045.pdf
i still think whilhelm reich book 'the mass psychology of fascism' explalins a lot. unfortunately i can not find a pre-'orgone theory' edition .. but still some good bits .. see page 21 e.g
i still think whilhelm reich book 'the mass psychology of fascism' explalins a lot. unfortunately i can not find a pre-'orgone theory' edition .. but still some good bits .. see page 21 e.g
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
treelover said:
Nice way to twist things. Have you any issues with any other religions or just Islam? IP didn't "insult" you and you do have a habit of posting drivel.
I don't expect you to reply because you're dead ignorant like that.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I wonder what the AWL's take is on this?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:proof ?? .. all i hear about is attacks on jewish cemetaries attacks on synagaoges and constant sniping ( oh that must be the jewish media!) .. muslims have more rights in the UK than probably any muslim country where there are always sectarian divisions and racial divisions .. this war on muslims is a smoke screen that you fell for
(and less of the colourfull language please
btw it was you who introduced this the ridiculous "wave of hate directed towards Muslims since 2001" into the thread .. there is no wave of hatred .. there may well ahev been a wave of hatred against those who would do actions like 9/11 and put bombs on teh tube and busses but considering those disgusting attacks there is very little anti muslim feeling
I guess you don't pay much attention to the media, durutti. Nor, it seems, do you pay much attention to the veiled Islamophobia on U75. The proof is plentiful, though I doubt you'll go an look for it because as far as you're concerned, the only 'evil' religion is Islam, which rather overlooks the fact that all religions are forms of social control.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
This is the single biggest obstacle that prevents us from moving forward: the idea that one must totally ignore the events on the rest of the planet to create some form of organised resistance here. Our young men and women are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan and all you can do it respond with parochialist rhetoric.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
durruti02 said:
When all else fails, reach for a smear.
