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how a people can slide into fascism and barbarism

Spion said:
Though our labour movement may be weak and corrupt it has not been physically shattered
There's a labour movement in this country?

*looks under carpet*

*checks behind sofa*

*shakes head in puzzlement*

It's this kind of grand deludedness and inability to look at the reality of current society that is part of the reason for the total collapse and failure of the left in this country.

In my opinion :)

In answer to the original post, it is true that this country is becoming more authoritarian, but I'm not sure the parallel with Nazi Germany stands up very well. I think the managerial authoritarianism of this government is a new phenomenon and not particularly comparable to fascism, except in terms of the government becoming regarded (and selling itself as) a kind of Super Parent figure. But the similarities end there I think.
 
Oh dear, BA the Op was about the rise of the TR, thats all, the OP on IUK used it to make a point about today's evenst, I didn't.


btw, TPH, used to be about debate, etc, not urban sniping, perhaps a return isin order
 
invisibleplanet said:
No, Muslims suffer more from racism than Jews in this country, durruti, but it's not a pissing contest about who suffers or suffered more, is it.

And you can take your arsy comments about Muslims, Jews and Israel and shove'em where the sun don't shine

proof ?? .. all i hear about is attacks on jewish cemetaries attacks on synagaoges and constant sniping ( oh that must be the jewish media!) .. muslims have more rights in the UK than probably any muslim country where there are always sectarian divisions and racial divisions .. this war on muslims is a smoke screen that you fell for

(and less of the colourfull language please :) )

btw it was you who introduced this the ridiculous "wave of hate directed towards Muslims since 2001" into the thread .. there is no wave of hatred .. there may well ahev been a wave of hatred against those who would do actions like 9/11 and put bombs on teh tube and busses but considering those disgusting attacks there is very little anti muslim feeling
 
treelover said:
Oh dear, BA the Op was about the rise of the TR, thats all, the OP on IUK used it to make a point about today's evenst, I didn't.
Good point, I should read the whole thread before posting :D
 
durruti02 said:
proof ?? .. all i hear about is attacks on jewish cemetaries attacks on synagaoges and constant sniping ( oh that must be the jewish media!) .. muslims have more rights in the UK than probably any muslim country where there are always sectarian divisions and racial divisions .. this war on muslims is a smoke screen that you fell for
What childish twaddle you come out with
 
durruti02 said:
why? show differrent if you think differrent
I've got better things to do with my time than argue with those who try to accuse people of believing in a Jewish controlled media and that increased bigotry towards muslims is some kind of smokescreen they've fallen for. You should know better than to come out with that in the first place, tho perhaps I over-estimated you
 
durruti02 said:
btw it was you who introduced this the ridiculous "wave of hate directed towards Muslims since 2001" into the thread .. there is no wave of hatred .. there may well ahev been a wave of hatred against those who would do actions like 9/11 and put bombs on teh tube and busses but considering those disgusting attacks there is very little anti muslim feeling

You have your head in the sand, then. You have no recollection of various mosque arson attempts? You can't remember the pigs head incidents across the country (against Muslim and Jewish targets).
You don't recall the desecration of Muslim (yes, and Jewish) cemetaries? You have no recollection of the largely unreported (nationally) of attacks on Muslim taxi drivers in West Yorkshire and in other parts of the country. Many deaths seem to have escaped your notice, durruti. You can't see the militant right's attempts to set Jewish communities against Muslim communities and vice-versa? You're a prick, so don't tell me to mind my colourful language.
 
kyser_soze said:
Muslims AND Jews have seen an upsurge in attacks against them and their religious buildings.
Yes, I know. I'm reminded of increase in hostilities following the 1905 Alien Act (although British TU's have improved their response and w/c solidarity greatly since those days).
 
I think Durrutti's just made an arse of himself, weighing in with petulant and wrong-headed insults just because some people had the temerity to not agree 100% with his mate's OP. Maybe that mindset is of relevance to the thread subject?
 
kyser_soze said:
Muslims AND Jews have seen an upsurge in attacks against them and their religious buildings.

ok fair play there has been a increase but considering the circumstances ( bombs and killings in london and soldiers dead in afghan and iraq it is insignificant )

.. spion sorry but i just get sick of this childish knee jerk .. there has been NO general wave of hatred against muslims in this country .. there was a wave of repulsion against bombers AND against those muslims who would declare ( violent jihad .. and yes against the burqha .. but yes i stand by that it is a smoke screen .. to racialise while they profit is what the state will always do .. try to create an enemy .. they have failed and have only convinced the left to run to the defence of muslims when they need none ..

many deaths IP really? this is why you appear ridiculous
 
Spion said:
The problem I have with that is that it starts in 1933 and is therefore blind to the servicemens' mutinies that ended WW1, the 1919 revolution when half the country was run by workers councils, the Red Ruhr, the literally life and death struggle on the streets againsts the Nazis etc. There's something very fitting about you selecting the writings of a demoralised individual writing after the mass movement had been defeated. Sure it's interesting enough, but inspiring or really very useful? No way. Though our labour movement may be weak and corrupt it has not been physically shattered as was that that suffered the rise of the Nazis

It also elides the whole Versailles treaty and the bones of contention within.
 
Spion said:
I think Durrutti's just made an arse of himself, weighing in with petulant and wrong-headed insults just because some people had the temerity to not agree 100% with his mate's OP. Maybe that mindset is of relevance to the thread subject?

so my approach is that of a german ignoring fascism?? that takes the biscuit:D

i accept i exaggerated .. that was wrong and apologies .. (there clearly have been attacks on muslims but see my point above and weigh that with the general level of anti social violence and it is NOT significant)

i am so sick of this idoicy that suggests there is a war against/wave of hatred against muslims .. it is rubbish .. there are few and only superficial similarities with pre nazi germany .. the whole class and relegious situation is entirely differrent .. comparisons are simply dangerously stupid
 
durruti02 said:
.. spion sorry but i just get sick of this childish knee jerk .. there has been NO general wave of hatred against muslims in this country .. there was a wave of repulsion against bombers AND against those muslims who would declare ( violent jihad .. and yes against the burqha .. but yes i stand by that it is a smoke screen .. to racialise while they profit is what the state will always do .. try to create an enemy .. they have failed and have only convinced the left to run to the defence of muslims when they need none ..
Your comments are a disgrace. Someone who considers themselves on the left should defend anyone from racist attack

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article1870842.ece

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article65995.ece

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/226/226178_thugs_in_mosque_attack.html

http://www.thisisbasingstoke.co.uk/...mosque_targeted_in_racist_graffiti_attack.php

durruti02 said:
.. many deaths IP really? this is why you appear ridiculous

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4951898.stm

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/loca...objectid=18138631&siteid=50060-name_page.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1085677.stm

http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk...76895&method=full&siteid=50002-name_page.html
 
durruti02 said:
there has been NO general wave of hatred against muslims in this country ..
Yes there was.
durruti02 said:
there was a wave of repulsion against bombers AND against those muslims who would declare ( violent jihad
No. There was a wave of actual violence against any muslim that the violent reactionaries could find - in the pub, in taxis, on the street, in some clubs, at school against the kids and so on and against businesses and mosques and other buildings perceived to be Muslim.
durruti02 said:
.. and yes against the burqha ..
A media-and-politician inspired attack against the niqab, against the hijab, against non-fashion buying homemade-clothes making Muslims - against beardy men whose wives sewed their shirts and trousers and so on.
durruti02 said:
but yes i stand by that it is a smoke screen .. to racialise while they profit is what the state will always do .. try to create an enemy .. they have failed and have only convinced the left to run to the defence of muslims when they need none ..
Fuck right off - the left this, the left that - this is a HUMANIST response you're seeing, not a leftist response.

many deaths IP really? this is why you appear ridiculous
Yes, four in my city the day after 2005 alone, numerous beatings, numerous knifings - all on innocent, predominently 'secular anglican-style' (i.e. mosque used for birth marriage death and occasional community knees up) Muslims.
 
Yes, four in my city the day after 2005 alone, numerous beatings, numerous knifings - all on innocent, predominently 'secular anglican-style' (i.e. mosque used for birth marriage death and occasional community knees up) Muslims.

And those were all confirmed as being racially motivated attacks by non-muslims?
 
kyser_soze said:
And those were all confirmed as being racially motivated attacks by non-muslims?
it really isn't difficult in West Yorks to hear people casually talking about 'the pakis', calling people 'bomber' in the street or 'anyone call a taxi?' if an Asian walks into a pub. See the list of local attacks on asian taxi drivers I posted - one crops up every couple months here
 
actually there are ten detailed interviews, some with former nazis in the book, i am sure some of them will cite the 'injustice' of Versaille. However, in general, i do think this is an amazing insight into how people aquiesced.


It also elides the whole Versailles treaty and the bones of contention within.
 
Spion said:
it really isn't difficult in West Yorks to hear people casually talking about 'the pakis', calling people 'bomber' in the street or 'anyone call a taxi?' if an Asian walks into a pub. See the list of local attacks on asian taxi drivers I posted - one crops up every couple months here
And that's just what was reported - the tip of the iceberg.
 
8ball said:
Things seem to have slid so much in the last ten years.

I don't know if it's just me - I speak to some people and they say no one ever cared about basic freedoms/rights of minorities/civil liberties/all that shit anyway.

:(

FREEDOM = SHOPPING :rolleyes:
 
treelover said:
actually there are ten detailed interviews, some with former nazis in the book, i am sure some of them will cite the 'injustice' of Versaille. However, in general, i do think this is an amazing insight into how people aquiesced.

Why do you place the word "injustice" in speechmarks?
Economists from throughout the west advised France and the US not to push for punitive reparations. Historians and social scientists throughout the west warned that the "single responsible party" clause that Germany was forced to sign as a condition for food aid would foster societal problems for decades to come. There wasn't, either, a popular movement in Europe to make Versailles so stringent. Most nations wanted an economically stable and socially-content Germany, not a bitter and disillusioned Germany who felt that they'd been victimised. It was partially that disillusion and the disastrous imposition of democracy that allowed Fascism to take hold. A fairly salutary historical lesson, you'd have thought.
 
Spion said:

there is absolutely nothing to show a 'wave of hatred" or a "war against" muslims ... just the sick violence that is endemic in our fucked up society .. mate we have had 3 teenagers murdered in the last 3 months in hackney

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/articles/2007/12/11/kurt_teen_murders_feature.shtml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7117749.stm

( you might also notice many of them are muslim .. by that is not why they were attacked as you know)

there are between 700-800 murders in this country every year ( think how many assaults)

IF there was any sort of significant national war/hate against muslims this would be reflected .. it is not ..

lets look at your proof .. 6 women were abused for wearing hijab / there is a mini riot in a small town ( with muslim dimension) / a drunken youth hurls abuse returns later attack congrgation / racist graffiti / a racist attack by youths - following a griffriend falling out / sick sick murders of taxidrivers / and a taxi drier assualted ( happens ALL the time) .. this is no proof of what you argue
 
Spion said:
it really isn't difficult in West Yorks to hear people casually talking about 'the pakis', calling people 'bomber' in the street or 'anyone call a taxi?' if an Asian walks into a pub. See the list of local attacks on asian taxi drivers I posted - one crops up every couple months here


i would not disagree that there are particular ( and bad) situations in parts of the country e.g west yorks .. that is NOT the same as arguing it is national and endemic .. but look how many white kids and adults are killed in west yorks year? look at the number of white ( and asian and black ) kids attacked knifed shot every week .. it is easy to pin up stats .. but they do NOT proff your overall point ..


indeed according to this there were 14,000 cases of violence against a person in leeds in 2006/7



http://www.upmystreet.com/local/police-crime/figures/l/West+Yorkshire.html

and there was in a larger area of west yorks c2000 racist incidents ( not neccessarrly violence ) against asians ( think most asians in west yorks are pakistani/kashmir muslims yes) .. not good but not your 'war'

..http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/section-item.asp?sid=66&iid=768
 
durruti02's head in sand:
Telegraph said:
The European Union's race watchdog yesterday accused a wide range of British commentators, politicians and media of helping to foster an upsurge in anti-Islamic feeling after the terrorist attacks of September 11.

In its report, Islamophobia, the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia said the biggest rise in violent attacks had taken place in Britain, Holland, Sweden, and most of all Denmark.

Women wearing the hijab, the Muslim headscarf, had been insulted, spat at, beaten and even raped in a wave of attacks across the EU, causing many to stop wearing the garment in public. In Britain, an Afghan taxi driver was paralysed from the necck down after being attacked with a bottle in a dispute over September 11.

The report said mosques had been firebombed in Edinburgh, Manchester and Bolton. The windows of Muslim homes had been smashed and dog excrement had been pushed through letterboxes. The report praised Tony Blair for helping to defuse the crisis last September by deploring insults against British Muslims as "despicable acts" that had "no proper place in our country".

The newspaper columnist Melanie Phillips was taken to task for writing in the Sunday Times that Muslims had become a "fifth column in our midst", an army of thousands of angry young Muslims "waiting to destroy the society that sustains them".

The report also focused on the Spectator for claiming that the Koran gives "scriptural cover for judicial brutality", and on William Oddie, for writing in The Telegraph that Britain's Muslims were an "alien wedge" and that it was not possible to separate "Islam" and "terrorism" in the British public mind.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/05/24/nxeno24.xml
 
invisibleplanet said:

as i said yes i accept there has been an upsurge BUT there is NOT a general national wave of hatred .. .. the facts are just not there ..

but you want there to be though don't you? why are you not interested in all the other violence?? all the other kids getting stabbed and raped and abused??? yours is NOT a humanist response .. you only see some humans .. i think you want politics to be about race not class .. a slippery slope that!
 
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