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"Honey trap" girl (south London teenager who lured boyfriend to his death)

The papers`influence a shockingly bad criminal justice system an appalling education system and ensure that loads of young people are effectivelly written off.

The girl, and the boys who killed this young lad are scum.
Does not matter the victim's past, he did not deserve to die beaten to death by a pack of animals.

She should get the same life tariff as the other killers.
In reality most of the male killers will get about 15 to 20 years to serve at a guess, given their young age. I expect she will get a lot less.
If there was justice, they should all serve at least 30 years.

Anyone who kills with a gun can expect at least 30 or 35 years to serve, was this boy's death any better than being shot?
 
The girl, and the boys who killed this young lad are scum.
Does not matter the victim's past, he did not deserve to die beaten to death by a pack of animals.

She should get the same life tariff as the other killers.
In reality most of the male killers will get about 15 to 20 years to serve at a guess, given their young age. I expect she will get a lot less.
If there was justice, they should all serve at least 30 years.

Anyone who kills with a gun can expect at least 30 or 35 years to serve, was this boy's death any better than being shot?


These kind of crimes happen a lot more among young black people. Why is that? Is it all down to lack of opportunities down to racism?......all the daily mail types fault or is it down to the guardian reader types pushing a victim mentality on Black people? or is it a bit of both?
 
There was some youth worker on a Sunday morning news program.
Was about getting kids to aim higher etc etc.
Shocked the presenter who imho was being patronizing about talking about people getting a trade.
He was making links with city banks and getting into trading and banking.
Face it if your prepared to stab someone for disusing you fucking over entire country's for extra cash and bling isn't going to bother you:D:(
London does have a huge financial market and there are jobs in it with a lot of cash why shouldn't young black kids get a slice.
 
I think it has to be a mixture of more direct action with more stop and search and the Cops given some sort of metal detectors or similar along with much harsher sentances for carrying knives.
Like most crime problems, you will never solve it simply by using the criminal justice system. When the fuck will this country ever realise that ...

The police cannot stop the majority of crimes from happening by their own activity alone ... it is simply not possible. They gave up pretending they could in the late 80s, early 90s. There is legislation from ten years ago that requires all public authorities to cooperate in reducing crime and disorder and to consider the impact on crime and disorder of everything they do ... that got the councils involved (because they had, by law, to form a local partnership with the police) but all the other agencies who the law said should get involved are still (with a few exceptions in particular areas) very reluctant to get involved (especially the one with arguably the most medium and long-term influence - education).
 
Personally, I'd take mugs of seemingly hot liquid to the library, then douse the kids inside with water. This might shock them into giving up on such useless pursuits as reading, and motivate them to go pick up a hammer or a pipe wrench, and make themselves useful.

Its a thought :)

But the real way out of poverty for people is to give them a trade or a skill which people will pay them well for using.

And in London we have a real shortage of skilled workers. Plus its more than just teaching them how to fix a central heating boiler.

For example you could have two kids, one white and one black, in an inner London comprehensive and the chances are that neither are going to set the accademic world alight.

But on leaving that school at 16 the white kid is far more likely to have a family background which will find him a start within a skilled trade enviroment. And he will go off to work and find himself in the company of other, older, working class people who will be talking about owning their own homes, buying nice cars, holidays abroad and so on. Effectively he will be influenced by role models who will offer him a realistic view of the world he comes from and what can be achieved. OK, I appreciate that for many on U75 the idea of working class people wanting to move out to the suburbs and play golf is one that they despise but thats the most viable route out for many many people.

However his black friend is far less likely to get given that break. So what society has to do is give him that break. Offer real training courses that end up with sellable skills.

For me one of the main reasons why the left is now a busted flush on the political scene is that it has lost the idea of working class aspirations being of primary importance and has replaced it with wooly headed notions of 'internationalism'. Get back to wanting poor kids to get a trade and stop wanting to them to 'occupy' University canteens and maybe people might start taking you seriously again.

But for a kid from a working class background it remains a fact that if you give them a viable pratical skill they can, and will, move on. And when they move on they bring a whole tranche of people with them.
 
But also, working class kids of all racial backgrounds, male or female, should be not be merely herded down vocational routes of 'education' and should be given better chances and help in developing their academic abilities, if they are that way inclined or have potential. Why should someone poor and/or from a non-university background, and who could be an educator or doctor be stuck sanding down a middle class wanker's skirting boards?
 
But also, working class kids of all racial backgrounds, male or female, should be not be merely herded down vocational routes of 'education' and should be given better chances and help in developing their academic abilities, if they are that way inclined or have potential. Why should someone poor and/or from a non-university background, and who could be an educator or doctor be stuck sanding down a middle class wanker's skirting boards?

I dont have a problem with that but the truth is that the system seems to be denying them both chances at the moment.

Its an area I know very little about but from what I can see pretty much all kids accross the social divide leave Primary education within touching distance of each other in terms of what they know. Its only when they go on to secondary that the divide starts increasing massively.

Of course we could go back to the idea of letting the more academcially gifted kids from working class backgrounds go to grammer schools but that seems to be off the political compass so we are stuck with the comprehensive system.

For me offering more opportunities for working class kids to gain trade skills is a pratical way of lifting people out of poverty which strikes me as being as much about expectations as it does not having food in the fridge.
 
the reason for the preponderance of music and media courses, is that these are the things that encourage disillusioned kids to engage (it isn't just black kids, of course - at my school, where "white british" kids are a tiny minority, it is they who underachieve most dramatically).

the courses are there in vocational subjects, but with the exception of girls studying 'health and social care', those courses are not the ones that the kids want to take. They don't feel they offer respect or are a desirable alternative, and so they do nothing to solve the problem.

Earning a decent wage doesn't really come up as an ambition for the kids i teach (in S London) - they don't see themselves or their family as being particularly disadvantaged by their lack of wealth (perhaps because so many of them have relatives in countries who are far, far 'poorer' in real terms). They'd like to be solicitors, but only in that half-arsed way that they want to be entertainers of fashion designers... earning loads of money would be cool (though not generally worth the effort) - but earning a middle-income doesn't really seem to be a motivation much over living on the dole / minimum wage.
 
Why should someone poor and/or from a non-university background, and who could be an educator or doctor be stuck sanding down a middle class wanker's skirting boards?

But what about the ones who don't have the kind of academic brains needed to become teachers or doctors?

It's wrong to characterise skilled work as no more than 'sanding down a middle class wanker's skirting boards'.
 
the reason for the preponderance of music and media courses, is that these are the things that encourage disillusioned kids to engage (it isn't just black kids, of course - at my school, where "white british" kids are a tiny minority, it is they who underachieve most dramatically).

the courses are there in vocational subjects, but with the exception of girls studying 'health and social care', those courses are not the ones that the kids want to take. They don't feel they offer respect or are a desirable alternative, and so they do nothing to solve the problem.

Earning a decent wage doesn't really come up as an ambition for the kids i teach (in S London) - they don't see themselves or their family as being particularly disadvantaged by their lack of wealth (perhaps because so many of them have relatives in countries who are far, far 'poorer' in real terms). They'd like to be solicitors, but only in that half-arsed way that they want to be entertainers of fashion designers... earning loads of money would be cool (though not generally worth the effort) - but earning a middle-income doesn't really seem to be a motivation much over living on the dole / minimum wage.

I do see your point but I think that what happens in the senario I wrote about with the two kids is that the white one who goes to work with an Uncle/Friend/whatever as say an apprentice sparks starts to mix in circles in which he sees people actually achieving things that are obtainable and his goals/ambitions change.

Maybe I am being to simplistic but having one Afro Caribeean client who could be described as coming from a disadvangtage background and seeing him now owning a very successful painting and decorating business and sending his kids to private school I think that giving people from disadvantaged backgrounds more pratical skills is the way forward. As to the motivation side of things, well I guess thats down to the Teachers.

The issue for the white kids that you mention is that when they leave School they are more likely to get into a field of employment that offers them real opportunities to make something of their lives than their black friends so whether they want to do daft media or music courses is less relevant.
 
But what about the ones who don't have the kind of academic brains needed to become teachers or doctors?

It's wrong to characterise skilled work as no more than 'sanding down a middle class wanker's skirting boards'.

Quite.

And if they start out sanding down skirting boards then they could move onto something that could at least match a Teachers wages along with having the opportunity to set up their own business.
 
And yet demand for journalism places are up by 27% this year. Depressing.
 
But what about the ones who don't have the kind of academic brains needed to become teachers or doctors?

It's wrong to characterise skilled work as no more than 'sanding down a middle class wanker's skirting boards'.

I do unskilled manual work myself thank you very much. I think it is also very wrong to merely herd working class kids down vocational routes, with those that have 'the academic brains' left without their potential developed. Why waste such people?
 
Quite.

And if they start out sanding down skirting boards then they could move onto something that could at least match a Teachers wages along with having the opportunity to set up their own business.

Would you offer this advice to middle class children? I bet you wouldn't.
 
Would you offer this advice to middle class children? I bet you wouldn't.


Depends on the circumstances but chances are no. But then again middle class kids aint stabbing each other to death on a regular basis or generally fucking up their lives, and those of lots of other people, to with such alarming frequency.

Look I am a working class Tory and cannot personally bang a nail in straight but the route I have seen lots of people I know take and which has seen them really improve their lives has been through getting a trade.

Its a pratical way of helping people come through a system which is inherently unfair but which does offer people the chance out.

And if somebody from a disadvantaged background can be given a chance to learn a trade and then move on with their lives because of that then their kids might actually go on to be Doctors and so on.

I would consider myself working class but have high hopes that my own Children will be the first in my family to go onto University and hopefully join the ranks of the proffessional middle classes. Its what almost everybody I know who comes from a similar background to myself wants and it will hopefully come about for most of them because they had a chance to get a trade.
 
I do unskilled manual work myself thank you very much.

No, thank you. I don't want to be doing unskilled manual work at my age, but someone's got to do it.

I think it is also very wrong to merely herd working class kids down vocational routes, with those that have 'the academic brains' left without their potential developed. Why waste such people?

It would be daft to advocate that, but can't recall having done so. :confused:
 
I never said you did. People do though. Widening university access shouldn't necessarily be about getting as many people as possible into it, as it is clear that the academic world is not suited to many people whatever their background. But access and appropriate support should be there to help make sure poor working class kids, if they want to, and who do have the potential and can make the most of it, receive a good education in whatever field they choose, and not be merely given a pair of overalls, patted on the head and told to 'get a trade' by someone who isn't as bright.
 
interesting they have to make this a 'Brixton' film, when the original murder happened in Thornton heath (so much less 'edgy'!), and none of those involved were Brixtonian

Agreed, but Thornton Heath's population have many connections with Brixton (families who moved out there over the past 20 years..). Brixton's PDC gang is apparently affiliated with Heathset and Tiny Heathset in the Thornton Heath area. At the gang level, they swim in the same soup.
 
Agreed, but Thornton Heath's population have many connections with Brixton (families who moved out there over the past 20 years..). Brixton's PDC gang is apparently affiliated with Heathset and Tiny Heathset in the Thornton Heath area. At the gang level, they swim in the same soup.
Really? didn't know that especially wrt the gangs. I always saw the Heathset as a bitg of a bunch of plastic gangsters tbh - there are certainly scarier people in Fornt'neaf than that.
 
Really, diudn't know that especially wrt the gangs. I always saw the Heathset as a bitg of a bunch of plastic gangsters tbh - there are certainly scarier people in Fornt'neaf than that.

Yep, they are just kids really. The Heathset elders were mostly banged up in October (or deported). They appear to be less serious about making money than DSN.

The gangs in Croydon appear to be scattering into less clearly defined geographical areas (according to the briefing I attended last week).
 
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