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Holocaust: the facts

Discussion in 'theory, philosophy & history' started by danny la rouge, Jan 25, 2017.

  1. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    In fact, may be good to include it somewhere in the OP danny la rouge - think we may be past the post editing time limit though.
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
  2. danny la rouge

    danny la rouge This is definitely the darkest timeline

    Good call, but I don't have an edit button there any more.

    Is that something a friendly mod can help with? Add butchersapron's stuff from Deborah Lipstadt to the OP? That'd be appreciated.

    editor, FridgeMagnet, Lazy Llama?

  3. editor

    editor Taffus Maximus

    Could you quote here what needs to be added. Thanks.
    spitfire and danny la rouge like this.
  4. danny la rouge

    danny la rouge This is definitely the darkest timeline

    Thanks editor
    frogwoman and editor like this.
  5. Idris2002

    Idris2002 A kick up the Arás

    Aye, nice one, thanks editor.
    danny la rouge likes this.
  6. frogwoman

    frogwoman Whatever's meant to go here.

    Ian Kershaws bios of Hitler and Michael Burleigh's 1994 book on Aktion T4 (though not about the Shoah but about persecution of disabled people) Death and Deliverance are worth adding to the list.
    agricola and danny la rouge like this.
  7. agricola

    agricola a genuine importer of owls

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  8. frogwoman

    frogwoman Whatever's meant to go here.

    Not the holocaust but certainly one of the things that contributed to it. I recently read a book called The Murder of William of Norwich: the origins of the blood libel in Medieval Europe by EM Rose which goes in to the founding myth of the blood libel allegations and their role in the spread of anti-semitism in medieval European society. it also goes into the role of class in medieval society and to what extent and why these allegations were believed, it has some fairly harrowing details about people who were sentenced to death on the basis of this bollocks and the instrumentalisation of anti-semitism by medieval rulers and unleashing anti-semitic violence as a way of consolidating power and cracking down on dissent. Well worth the read if you want to understand the long history this has in Europe. It also makes the point that sloppy scholarship and writing about the issue has partly contributed to the idea that it could be true, as well as falsely creating the impression that this was just a superstition as opposed to something that was instrumentalised by some very powerful people.
  9. frogwoman

    frogwoman Whatever's meant to go here.

  10. Beats & Pieces

    Beats & Pieces 24601 / 9430


    What does that mean?
  11. Casually Red

    Casually Red tomorrow belongs to me

    Race to the fucking bottom by the sounds of you .
    NoXion likes this.
  12. danny la rouge

    danny la rouge This is definitely the darkest timeline

    Whatever it means to racists, is the point.
  13. Idris2002

    Idris2002 A kick up the Arás

    Everyone else is stupid except for you.

    Keep telling yourself that.
    frogwoman and NoXion like this.
  14. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    Depends entirely on whom you ask for a definition.
  15. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Do you really think this piece of banal (rather than your own image of it as socratic) provocation is appropriate for this thread? Given that, if you get what you want, you'll end up trashing a useful resource. I hope the mods remove you as they have removed others from this thread - and this and your posts.
  16. frogwoman

    frogwoman Whatever's meant to go here.

    I know the above poster was asking the question disingenuously, but worth reading on the 'race' question is Adam Hochschild's The Kaiser's Holocaust which is about the genocide of Herero people in German controlled South West Africa during WWI and the role it played in 'scientific' anti-black racism and the development of Nazi racial theory and doctrines of racial superiority (some of the people involved in this genocide went on to take part in WW2 atrocities against Jews).
    hipipol and Almor like this.
  17. frogwoman

    frogwoman Whatever's meant to go here.

  18. Hughde

    Hughde New Member

    I would suggest everyone to read books by Ewa Kurek. Some are transatedinto English. Books are writen very nicly and a lady is making her reaserch for a long time now. Facts are takem from diarys written in Getto. May be very suprising for may of you
  19. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    What is it about the holocaust that attracts far right ethno-nationalists and anti-semites i wonder? Another one to go please.
    bimble likes this.
  20. Kaka Tim

    Kaka Tim Crush the Saboteurs!

    I keep seeing stuff posted on lsrael/palastine related stuff on the "we support jeremy corbyn" page which seeks to undermine the figure of 6 million jews being murdered. The argument is that the "six million" figure has some long standing religious significance to jewish people and thats why that figure was put forward as the likely jewish death toll from the holocaust.
    From what i can tell this is a common meme amongst holocaust denialists and acts as a kind of disingenuous "entry level" criticism of the commonly accepted facts. Any info/ links debunking this would be welcome.
  21. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    :hmm: Bit dodge?
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  22. bimble

    bimble noisy but small

    What is it you're looking for, evidence to support the historical accuracy of the figure of aprox 6 million killed ?
    I think the utter nonsense you're referring to (re it's a made up number with kabalistic significance) come from this piece of loonery. Anyone repeating this nonsense, I'm not sure they should be excused as 'entry level critics of commonly accepted facts' tbh.
  23. copliker

    copliker ...

    Just a tad.

  24. Kaka Tim

    Kaka Tim Crush the Saboteurs!

    no - what i mean is the critiques of the 6 million figure present themselves as legitimate arguments for accurate facts - so suckering in the more gullible, especially amongst those with a propensity for believing conspiracy theories (who are depressingly prevalent amongst the corbynite/momentum left - going by social media posts) . Thats why im looking for quick and effective debunking to expose the cunts who are posting these sort of links.
  25. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    There's been lots of research; almost all of it that withstands any academic scrutiny comes up with a figure around the 6M mark, based on witness testimony, census records and the Nazi's own documents.

    The figure was confirmed by a very senior SS officer, Wilhelm Höttl, who testified post -war that Eichmann had told him out was 6M: 4M in camps, and 2M in other ways (principally at the hands of Einsatzgruppen).

    But, really, if even if the figure were 'only' half that, so what? It'd still be an atrocity. Particularly given the weight of evidence which proves it was a concerted attempt to wipe out European Jewry.
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  26. danny la rouge

    danny la rouge This is definitely the darkest timeline

    Kaka Tim, the various books referenced go into great detail on numbers and sources and give workings for the estimates. However, for a quick overview I'm attaching scans from Chapter 7 of Denying History by Shermer and Grobman, pp 174-178 (book referenced in the OP).

    shermer-grobman pp174-175.png

    shermer-grobman pp176-177.png

    shermer-grobman p178.png
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  27. danny la rouge

    danny la rouge This is definitely the darkest timeline

  28. Beats & Pieces

    Beats & Pieces 24601 / 9430

    It was not a banal provocation - but a question that has to be constantly asked in respect of any and every discourse - unless you are are suggesting that a particular discourse should remain free of questioning at any level?

    I'm sure that you would recognise the problem with such a position, no?
  29. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    Please don't have this meta discussion here. Start another thread. This one has a very specific, practical purpose:

    "This thread aims to be a resource for credible work evidencing the Holocaust."
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  30. Beats & Pieces

    Beats & Pieces 24601 / 9430

    Absolutely agree with the aim of the thread - was responding to a comment.

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