Holocaust: the facts

Discussion in 'theory, philosophy & history' started by danny la rouge, Jan 25, 2017.

  1. Lurdan

    Lurdan old wave

    I read that Guardian story about the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust poll and noted that the figures were unsourced. A little later I read the discussion of the poll on this thread and found myself frowning a little. I guess that what I am about to say may appear to be a fairly minor point, and I've debated with myself about posting it, but given what this thread is about I think it's relevant to say it.

    Looking at the HMDT trust website I see that they also issued a press release about the results of a survey last year. Evidently it's a regular part of their annual activities. No details were given about the methodology used or questions asked in conducting that survey either. Last years press release began
    whereas this years begins
    It is of course very stupid to claim you are 'releasing research' when all you appear to be doing is citing a couple of survey results without any detail. And giving no detail means there is no basis on which to draw any conclusions about the 'meaning' of those results.

    Why then should I look askance at the discussion of this press release above ? Isn't this exactly how opinion polls are routinely questioned on other politics threads ?

    Holocaust denial is founded on people deliberately blurring the distinctions between challenging propaganda and challenging the historical record. Refuting it commonly leads into very convoluted arguments disentangling the different threads of nonsense and dishonesty. As a result if I was questioning the validity of claims about attitudes to the holocaust I would want to make it perfectly clear what questions I was asking (in this case, for example, was I challenging the methodology of a particular survey, or the use to which its results were put). And I would want to make it reasonably clear why I was asking those questions. I don't consider it acceptable that other people should be expected to simply make assumptions about whether I am asking my questions in good faith or whether my reasons for asking them were acceptable.

    As it happens I don't have any "dark suspicions" at all about the discussion of this poll, taken as a whole or any individual contributions, but in my opinion that is neither here nor there. It is indeed exactly like other such discussions here at Urban. That is my point. Discussions about opinion polls on other threads not infrequently act as a proxy for political discussions people don't wish to conduct directly. However, as those discussions regularly exemplify, raising questions and "just asking questions" are not the same thing. Frankly, if there is one thread where leaving ambiguity about that distinction is inappropriate, in my opinion it is one intended to challenge and refute holocaust denial.
     
  2. weltweit

    weltweit Well-Known Member

    What were those claims that were doubted? What about this:

     
  3. dylanredefined

    dylanredefined Not a house elf a tiger

    Met a real Nazi who been round that area. Thought some of his stories were over egged for his audience if anything they were under played. Tbh not sure if you can claim to be sane if you take part in horror like that and think it's okay?
     
  4. mauvais

    mauvais change has become unavoidable

    What's the actual purpose of challenging the HMDT claim, other than the noble aim of pursuing better data for all forever? What are the best and worst outcomes that come of challenging this particular claim?

    Is it, for example, because you suspect that it's actually less than 5% of people that are thick as mince? If so, why?
     
  5. Don Troooomp

    Don Troooomp Condescension and embedded self importance

    Lack of public knowledge makes denial easier.
     
  6. copliker

    copliker ...

    Frank Blaichman, 96, Dies; Led Jewish Fighters in World War II

    The book seems to be out of print.
     
    yield, Chilli.s and danny la rouge like this.
  7. redsquirrel

    redsquirrel This Machine Kills Progressives

    Not the full data but they have added the info below to the website
     
  8. Argonia

    Argonia Happy go licky

    Holocaust denial makes me fucking furious
     
  9. Idris2002

    Idris2002 chief propagandist (official)

  10. 19force8

    19force8 For the avoidance of faith

    Irving scheduled to s̶p̶e̶a̶k̶ lie in Coventry on 8 February. :mad:
     
  11. Sasaferrato

    Sasaferrato Thank fuck it's not over.

    My late uncle Rob was in the British contingent that entered Bergen Belsen. He only spoke of it once, but it had a very profound effect on him.

    To me, Holocaust deniers are beyond loathsome, they are being deliberately ignorant. Do they seriously believe that all of the film, photographs and physical remains of the camps have been forged?
     
    QueenOfGoths, mojo pixy and starfish like this.
  12. weltweit

    weltweit Well-Known Member

    My Dad was at Belsen some time after it was liberated. We spoke about it a bit, he said the civilians in the local town had claimed not to have known about it, which no one believed, despite their having spreading the remains on their farms. Some local civilians were rounded up and made to help clean up the camp and bury the dead.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
    mojo pixy and Sasaferrato like this.
  13. weltweit

    weltweit Well-Known Member

  14. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Please don't link to wikipedia. Stop.
     
  15. weltweit

    weltweit Well-Known Member

    What is the issue with Wikipedia?
     
  16. mojo pixy

    mojo pixy unquantifiable hazards

    Upthread I linked to a well-known but unreleased documentary made in 1946 that includes footage of the liberation of Bergen-Belsen. That was on YT and had been uploaded by some anti-catholic loon. Since we're on the subject of B-B now, here's a cleaner, untouched-by-conspiraloon version which sits on Dailymotion.

    Valuable in the main because of the original footage. Truly harrowing stuff and there's no real harm in posting it multiple times on this thread.



    Need to go to the video's actual page to see the film (copy and fix because U75 keeps reformatting the link into an embedded video):

    https://www. dailymotion.com/video/x2lkvfx

    The Link is safe, but clearly embedding has been disabled.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  17. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    This thread full of academic links does not need you chipping in with a wiki link. Please read.
     
  18. Idris2002

    Idris2002 chief propagandist (official)

  19. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Not much. Has a mad ending/ suggestion that i remember writing all over. I'll check later when home.
     

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