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Holocaust Memorial planned for Victoria Tower Gardens

Discussion in 'London and the South East' started by DJWrongspeed, Jan 28, 2016.

  1. DJWrongspeed

    DJWrongspeed radio eros

    Maybe it's just me but I'm scratching my head on this one.

    Are we implicating ourselves in Germany's darkest hour ? As far as I know British Jews were not victims on the whole. It jars with me and if it was so important to remember why now? Go to Berlin, they do this kind of stuff pretty well.

    or so it says? It's negative though, as Primo Levi said, "The aims of life are the best defense against death." How about a memorial to our brave citizens who had good ideas on social equality???
     
  2. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    What's the problem?
     
    MadeInBedlam and Pickman's model like this.
  3. purenarcotic

    purenarcotic Conveniently Pocket Sized

    How can you say British Jews were unaffected? What a silly thing to suggest.
     
  4. DJWrongspeed

    DJWrongspeed radio eros

    Of course, I mean we didn't send them off to Germany, we opened our borders to them.
     
  5. purenarcotic

    purenarcotic Conveniently Pocket Sized

    So why the issue with the memorial? It affected a huge number of people here, some are the only member of their family to survive, I don't see why there's an issue with a memorial.
     
  6. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    No we didn't.

    And we opened our borders to British jews?

    This is very silly and you need explain yourself better here.
     
  7. toblerone3

    toblerone3 Grrrrr

  8. toblerone3

    toblerone3 Grrrrr

  9. purenarcotic

    purenarcotic Conveniently Pocket Sized

    'Swarms' of us came over, clearly. ;)
     
  10. danny la rouge

    danny la rouge This is definitely the darkest timeline

    Well, a bunch of you at least.
     
    purenarcotic likes this.
  11. DJWrongspeed

    DJWrongspeed radio eros

    Ok, it's just me. Seems people don't have a problem with it.
     
  12. DJWrongspeed

    DJWrongspeed radio eros

    I'm still puzzled by this, it's in the news again with huge overblown proposals. We already have a holocaust memorial garden in Hyde Park.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    Why does it bother you that there's renewed interest in remembering the holocaust, now?

    With such obvious parallels as the rise of nationalism east and west; a refugee crisis; financial crisis; the possible collapse of the union which had (originally, at least) an aim to bring an end to simmering resentments in Europe; and, as the last few survivors die, an ignorance amongst many young people, and even a rise in revisionism; isn't it more relevant than is been for some time?
     
  14. bimble

    bimble uber-hippy twonk peanut

    I'd be quite happy if the money was spent on improving education about what happened instead of another memorial but this
    is just silly.
     
    danny la rouge likes this.
  15. Artaxerxes

    Artaxerxes Well-Known Member

    It's a bit random to have it at this point I guess but there's no harm in it.

    Especially not with the rise of internet wankers saying "fucking Jew" which has started to increase in my experience online.

    Anything to stop this sort of shit happening again is a good thing.
     
    Schmetterling and not-bono-ever like this.
  16. Holocaust denial is massively on the rise and kids looking in to it will be confronted with a lot of lies about it. So anything that raises awareness of what happened can only be a good thing.
     
    bromley and not-bono-ever like this.
  17. DJWrongspeed

    DJWrongspeed radio eros

    I don't have a problem with this at all and yes as others have stated this is all very timely, see the latest from Syria etc The Imperial war museum does good work on this and maybe a permanent education centre is the way to go. I just wonder whether erecting what looks like 'huge' monuments in our precious central london green spaces is appropriate. The new airman one on Picadilly for example is very oversized.
     
  18. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    yeh but two are better than one
     
    Schmetterling likes this.
  19. Chilli.s

    Chilli.s Well-Known Member

    A recent trip to youtube showed me that a lot of deluded idiots have been given a platform for their jack shit theories of holocaust denial. Perhaps something to address that would be more effective than another memorial. That something within living memory can be distorted by numpties is the worry.
     
  20. Schmetterling

    Schmetterling I saw something nasty in the woodshed!

    This! Exactly this!
     
  21. DJWrongspeed

    DJWrongspeed radio eros

    Apologise for bringing this up again. Terrible plans to fk up Victoria Gardens, a precious green space in our capital, planned here.

    I don't think anything above really convinces me the case for a bold permanent monument in the shadow of Parliament. Why do crimes committed by others need to be memorialised next to our Parliament....the list is endless.

    Of course I support Holocaust education centres for school children and the public, this isn't about that.

    I'll put my cards on the table:

    I visited Oświęcin / Auschwitz when I was 19 and it had a profound affect on me. Our tour party included someone whose uncle died there.
    thomas fowell buxton, an anti-slavery campaigner, is a very distant relative, see the monument picture in the link.
     
  22. bimble

    bimble uber-hippy twonk peanut

    I don’t understand your ‘cards on the table’ bit. What are you trying to say, that you wish you hadn’t visited there aged 19?
     
  23. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    But that's merely saying "if we have a physically-larger memorial, that'll raise awareness". Bear in mind that the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin is very large, but hasn't discouraged anti-Semitism one iota. You need to look at the structural causes of anti-Semitism, and address them, not spunk public money on a "bigger and better" memorial which is ethically, morally and (in the opinion of a couple of architect friends) architecturally irrelevant.
     
    bimble likes this.
  24. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    Putting in a big "thing" for people to file past - a bit like a school trip to The Monument - won't help dim the rise of nationalism. It won't (and never will) stop anti-Semitism (because most anti-Semites of the last half-century are revisionists and Holocaust deniers), and it won't stop the sort of murderous stupidity that leads to wars and to ethnic cleansing.
    What DOES help dim them is holding hard nationalists and fascists to reasoned debate, and showing them up as the idiots they are. A memorial is just one more thing for the boneheads to vandalise and deface.
     
    RoyReed and bimble like this.
  25. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    I have to admit, Victoria Tower Gardens is a lovely small park that makes a BIG difference in that part of the capital, and that is part of the reason I don't want to see this new memorial, but it's only a small part of the reason. The major part is that it's unnecessary, and it (from the plans I've seen) doesn't "spell out" its meaning in the way that The Berlin, Vienna and Prague (to name but three) memorials do. It seems to speak more of the architect.
     
    RoyReed likes this.
  26. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    That's a good argument for prioritising other measures to fight fascism. But, that didn't seem to be the op's perspective.
     
  27. bimble

    bimble uber-hippy twonk peanut

    Op's perspective seems pretty shit tbh, along the lines of 'its nothing to do with us'. I'd go for spending the money on education every time over yet another stone/metal Thing.
     
  28. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    :D
     
    Badgers likes this.
  29. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    What effect did it have on you?
     
    Badgers likes this.
  30. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    Tbh I'd prefer people in public office not think putting up a memorial's sufficient, esp a memorial oh seventy five years after the event.
     
    Badgers and ViolentPanda like this.

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