poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
as would to go "sorry - your not part of our favoured-opressed-of-the-month, so we're not all that interested in you".belboid said:
Hierarchy of Oppression
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poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Nail. Head.kyser_soze said:
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
So the suffering in the Sudan, which involves many, many more people than the Palenstinian situation, or the millions of indentured workers globally are suffering 'less' of an attack by state/capital? Fuck me - part of the issue with the Pals is related to land and isn't a class issue at all, so we're back to the 'loudest and shoutiest' getting support.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
The moronic UK-left hasn't got a leg to stand on with the way it carries on.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Talk about projection!belboid said:
"Dear Pot,
Yours sincerely,
Kettle.
CC: Chimney"
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
says the man who never even bothers trying to stand, just sits on his fat worthless arse going 'its all doomed you know'poster342002 said:
You are no better than the tories and the bosses you claim to despise poster, all you do all day is make excuses as to why they cant be stopped. Utterly utterly worthless.
Now, are you actually going to attempt to justify your earlier posts? the ones I showed were full of shit, or are you just going to throw insults out of your pram?
Originally Posted by poster342002
Basically, I think that much of "the movement" doesn't really want to upset the establishemnt too much. It's almost like there's an unspoken agreement between it and the establishment that certain issues are strictly off-limits.
90 percent of urbanites by my reckoning but then i'm predjudiced against those who strut these boards knowing that they are part of the establishment and there parents even more so whilst pretending otherwise
Basically, I think that much of "the movement" doesn't really want to upset the establishemnt too much. It's almost like there's an unspoken agreement between it and the establishment that certain issues are strictly off-limits.
belboid said:
90 percent of urbanites by my reckoning but then i'm predjudiced against those who strut these boards knowing that they are part of the establishment and there parents even more so whilst pretending otherwise
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
belboid said:
Yeah, slightly confusing post...but...
You're using the reasoning concerning potential impact on the wider world as a reason for focussing on Pal, not Darfur or global indentured labour, as a primary campaiging issue - basically, there isn't enough time to reach out to every cause in the world. But you're reasoning is exactly that used by the mainstream global media for ignoring those issues - and that is based on a hierarchy of what's classified as news importance for a local audience.
So I say again, there is a selective process on whom to support, based not on who is most in need of support, but on who can shout that they need help the loudest.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
There's no such thing as a hierarchy of oppression - otherwise we should all agree to act only on the very worst issue first and ignore all the rest until that one's solved, which seems kind of dumb.
There is undoubtedly a difference in emphasis and focus on different issues and Palestine is one that is often at the forefront. There are lots of reasons for this:
1. It's a legacy of British colonial rule and the injustice motivates many to political action where they are not otherwise involved in Left politics - the majority of supporters of the Palestinian cause are not members of left sects and many wouldn't even describe themselves as left wing
2. Israel claims to act in the name of all Jews, which unsurprisingly infuriates many Jews, whether or not they are involved with the Organised Left
3. It's one of the few examples where the oppressor has overt political support from Western governments and other powerful interest groups (I am reminded of pro-Zionists on these boards complaining that there are few threads arguing about Darfur or China whilst ignoring the fact that there is noone queuing up to defend these regimes)
4. Any cause which attracts widespread popular support is a useful entryist hook for left sects
There is undoubtedly a difference in emphasis and focus on different issues and Palestine is one that is often at the forefront. There are lots of reasons for this:
1. It's a legacy of British colonial rule and the injustice motivates many to political action where they are not otherwise involved in Left politics - the majority of supporters of the Palestinian cause are not members of left sects and many wouldn't even describe themselves as left wing
2. Israel claims to act in the name of all Jews, which unsurprisingly infuriates many Jews, whether or not they are involved with the Organised Left
3. It's one of the few examples where the oppressor has overt political support from Western governments and other powerful interest groups (I am reminded of pro-Zionists on these boards complaining that there are few threads arguing about Darfur or China whilst ignoring the fact that there is noone queuing up to defend these regimes)
4. Any cause which attracts widespread popular support is a useful entryist hook for left sects
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I dont agree that the reasoning is the same (not entirely, there is obviously some cross over). For tv the main reason is - are there pictures? How shocking are they? For me, it is 'what is the wider effect upon the world' combined with 'what can we practically do.' the combined effect of these things will often mean that the cause I am preferencing (for want of a better word) will be 'louder' but that is because of the obvious symbiosis between 'importance' and 'noise'. It wont always be that way - eg the ethiopian famine, which (once the cameras could get some pictures) was by far the noisiest world event going on at the time.kyser_soze said:
Nope. To the point. Funny how you always seem to get your knickers in a twist when middle class subject matter comes up yet always fail to make any contribution christ you make nino look like some sort of divine intelligence
dennisr said:Just one among his many (well...) hidden talents
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
belboid said:
But because it's so distributed, you'll never get this kind of critical mass for globalised groups like indentured labourers - fuck me, even seeing some 'socialists' demonstrating about workers' conditions in Dubai would be something (indentured labour, many death's due to heat exhaustion caused by working in 50+ temp recorded as 'heart failures' only to keep the stats good - these not important enough? Fuck me that's an ACTUAL workers struggle...)
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
and who are the indentured labourers in dubai? frequently they are....palestinians! (tho they seem to be being replaced by indian labourers currently)
this is the point i was trying to make before about the knock on effects of the diaspora, and why palestine is so important, the effects it would have on the labour force of the other arab states would be massive
this is the point i was trying to make before about the knock on effects of the diaspora, and why palestine is so important, the effects it would have on the labour force of the other arab states would be massive
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
According to a mate of mine who lives over their it's mainly Phillipinos and Indians. Most of the Pals got the boot about 2 or 3 years ago, being seen as 'undesireables'.
And it's demonstrative of how oppurtunistic much Muslim anger about the Pal situation is when you consider that NO nations of the Umma would take the refugees in when Israel booted them out.
And I doubt there are many indentured Palestinians in say, China, or Myanmar or India or Horn of Africa. The issue of modern indentured labour is far closer to the begingings of the European class struggle of the C19th than Israel/Palestine. But much like the change issues the white w/c have been faced with since the 1960s, there's no clear chain of oppression or easily delineated identity issue to protest about.
I honestly don't know why you're arguing against the ID politics argument - certainly the HOE is shaky, but to argue against something that is painfully obvious to someone who isn't immersed in left thinking and politicking surprises me...
And it's demonstrative of how oppurtunistic much Muslim anger about the Pal situation is when you consider that NO nations of the Umma would take the refugees in when Israel booted them out.
And I doubt there are many indentured Palestinians in say, China, or Myanmar or India or Horn of Africa. The issue of modern indentured labour is far closer to the begingings of the European class struggle of the C19th than Israel/Palestine. But much like the change issues the white w/c have been faced with since the 1960s, there's no clear chain of oppression or easily delineated identity issue to protest about.
I honestly don't know why you're arguing against the ID politics argument - certainly the HOE is shaky, but to argue against something that is painfully obvious to someone who isn't immersed in left thinking and politicking surprises me...
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
mm, I'm arguing against it, because I don't think it is what is happening, I don't recognise it as an accurate description of the state of the world as it is. Raising the issue of palestine has nothing, not a thing, nowt, zero, nada, fuck all, to do with the palestinians being muslims, and trying to get in with muslim groups, that is entirely coincidental. So it being 'identity politics' is purely and simply wrong.
Yes, there was much much hypocrisy from the countries with majority muslim populations when the palestinians were kicked out, that point has been made time and time again by leftists (less so by the official solidarity movements, because they need those governments' money!).
As to the increasing role of indentured labour, I think I agree that it should probably be talked up more, tho it is discussed in relation to China and such places. But it still comes back to the two key questions I mentioned before: what are its wider implications and effects upon the world: and what can we do?
Yes, there was much much hypocrisy from the countries with majority muslim populations when the palestinians were kicked out, that point has been made time and time again by leftists (less so by the official solidarity movements, because they need those governments' money!).
As to the increasing role of indentured labour, I think I agree that it should probably be talked up more, tho it is discussed in relation to China and such places. But it still comes back to the two key questions I mentioned before: what are its wider implications and effects upon the world: and what can we do?
belboid said:
oh great lets all vote far right
belboid said:
Maybe because some of the disabled cannot get out and about still i am sure you thought this point through quite clearly
belboid said:
The heart and soul of socialism has spoken and i think we all should leave it there reallly
you point seemed to be asylum seekers yay disabled people booooo .Just for a change like
I don't think the term "hierarchy of oppression" is appropriate either - every person who cares about others can't put the same amount of energy into every cause available, or very little would ever get done about anything. People have to prioritise depending on what touches their lives - and different people have different priorities. This doesn't mean they don't care about other causes - but there is only so much that each person can do.
I don't think it has anything to do with class, either - I know people from different classes who just don't give a damn what is going on in other parts of the world, and are even offended when such things are mentioned - they just yawn and they even say the same things, something like 'You know I'm not interested in politics' before they start talking again about their little self-absorbed lives.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
This is what bothers me, to. The left seems unable to champion a workers' cause unless they can find some way of hitching it to a racial issue. Why they insist on doing this, I really can't understand.kyser_soze said:
belboid said:
you should learn to think
poster342002 said:
exactly
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