Hezbollah Reconstructing Lebanon
- Thread starter slaar
- Start date
moono said:
You always talk as if the Israelis had no one to defend themselves against.
moono said:
You have your head too firmly stuck in the sand to have a debate with.
It's clear that in the recent Lebanon invasion, Israel's aggression was at a higher scale than the aggression it faced. It's also clear that Lebanese resistance fighters were engaged in a defensive war - the missiles were a response to air raids, the bunkers they had placed were emplaced in sovereign territory - territory that belonged to Lebanon, not Israel.
As for Gaza, it's again clear that Israel is acting more aggressively than the people it claims to be "defending itself" against. It really is shameful to describe a nuclear power sending tanks, planes and artillery against a foe mainly composed of light infantry forces as a defensive action. it's not. it's a blatant use of indiscriminate and overpowering force. In these two cases, Israel is bang out of order. The history of both conflicts extends back years, and dialogue, not conflict, is required to establish a "sustainable peace". Sadly, that phrase has been co-opted in classic 'doublespeak' style to mean a carte blanche for Israel to call the shots.
As for Gaza, it's again clear that Israel is acting more aggressively than the people it claims to be "defending itself" against. It really is shameful to describe a nuclear power sending tanks, planes and artillery against a foe mainly composed of light infantry forces as a defensive action. it's not. it's a blatant use of indiscriminate and overpowering force. In these two cases, Israel is bang out of order. The history of both conflicts extends back years, and dialogue, not conflict, is required to establish a "sustainable peace". Sadly, that phrase has been co-opted in classic 'doublespeak' style to mean a carte blanche for Israel to call the shots.
Rocketman: You are trying to act as if warfare operates on an symmetrical scale. Nothing could ever be further from the truth. The idea is to neutralise the threat by any means at your disposal, and hopefully under International norms.
Israel clearly stated its multi objectives. It also went far beyond the call of duty or International Law by trying to limit collateral damages by informing civlians of impending attacks.
Still, in the much ballyhooed fog of war mistakes did happen. Israelk for one sufferred an extremely high rate if Friendly Fire, this to avoid hurting non-combatants. Issues like thse warrant merely a 4 paragraph blurb buried on something like A10 of the Times nad nothing at all in the tabloids.
Foreigner: "Israel itself was founded on a campaign of terrorism." WRONG. There were 2 terrorist organisations that were in fact taking civlian lives. It was not their aim but neither did they concern themselves with llimitting them in any way. The Yishuv, forrunner of the Israeli Govt. not only discouraged their activities but in many cases even turned in the actors to the British authorities where they were usually hung. The Jewish Street as it were did not suppoort their activities either. This is hugely different than what one can see in today's Arab society.
As for Israel's founding, Zipnism coalesced in the early 1860s under the figurehead of Moses Hess. There were a total of 5 Aliyas, or major periods of immigration to the REestablished state, with the first in the 1800s. By the tun of the 20th Century CE/AD the Yishuv had all the makings of an actual government.
Unlike their Arab neighbours who in 1919 refused the offer of a shared land, the Jews jumped at the offer and had Partittion in hand. In 1947 the UN ratified its existence into sovereignity so that no rein of terror was ever needed.
Israel clearly stated its multi objectives. It also went far beyond the call of duty or International Law by trying to limit collateral damages by informing civlians of impending attacks.
Still, in the much ballyhooed fog of war mistakes did happen. Israelk for one sufferred an extremely high rate if Friendly Fire, this to avoid hurting non-combatants. Issues like thse warrant merely a 4 paragraph blurb buried on something like A10 of the Times nad nothing at all in the tabloids.
Foreigner: "Israel itself was founded on a campaign of terrorism." WRONG. There were 2 terrorist organisations that were in fact taking civlian lives. It was not their aim but neither did they concern themselves with llimitting them in any way. The Yishuv, forrunner of the Israeli Govt. not only discouraged their activities but in many cases even turned in the actors to the British authorities where they were usually hung. The Jewish Street as it were did not suppoort their activities either. This is hugely different than what one can see in today's Arab society.
As for Israel's founding, Zipnism coalesced in the early 1860s under the figurehead of Moses Hess. There were a total of 5 Aliyas, or major periods of immigration to the REestablished state, with the first in the 1800s. By the tun of the 20th Century CE/AD the Yishuv had all the makings of an actual government.
Unlike their Arab neighbours who in 1919 refused the offer of a shared land, the Jews jumped at the offer and had Partittion in hand. In 1947 the UN ratified its existence into sovereignity so that no rein of terror was ever needed.
Moono: How come you always ignore the blatant acts of violence ion the part of HAMAS during the so called "Cease Fire," not even calling into queestion the daily Qassams? Should I post the ist again Moono?
Bob_the_lost
Elsewhere
rachamim18 said:
Friendly fire happens when someone fucks up a target identification. Please tell me how that shows Israeli forces trying strenuously to avoid shooting at civilians? I suppose you could say that shooting other soldiers would cut down on the civilian death toll as you'll have less people firing at civilians, but i doubt that's what you thought, if you thought at all before you posted that.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
untethered said:
Can this be said of the Hizb though?
The rockets they fired during the 33 day war were mostly aimed at northern Isreal, could this be because of the military pressence in that area? And there were some that landed around military bases and installations of the Isreali arms industry, but were reported as targeting civilian areas nearby. But if Hizbollah merely wanted to rocket civilians, they could have struck larger cities in the heart of Isreal, sent infiltrators to blow up supermarkets etc. That whole spin about Hizbollah hiding military operations amongst civilians could just as easily be levelled at Isreal, but it was never reported that way.
I don't want to be an apologist for people who target civilians, but I know I can't trust the general point of view fed to me via the likes of the BBC, which just copy/patses what the Isreali media tell it, and the Isreali media is closely controlled by te military when it comes to 'security issues'.
All in all the 33 day war has certainly made me question my state-given assumptions about Hizbollah at any rate. The whole thing reminds me of the colonial attitudes of earlier times, when it was alright for 'civilisation' to wage war against 'the natives' but should the natives fight back, this was greeted with outrage and indignation. It's like Red Indians and Aboriginies all over again. How Dare the savages resist our manifest right.
If Isreal made peace with the Arab people, the Arab governments would have lost a major enemy of distraction, and would have to account for themselves with their populations, instead, Isreal justifies their perception of Isreal as an arrogant colonial race-state born and maintained by violence, terror and ethnic-cleansing.
Foireigner: No, it was due to their limitations in armamanets. they are all short to medium ranged [those firedd]. there was no aiming involved. You fail to understand that these rockets have no guidance systems at all
It is like throwing a rock at a group of people.
Wrong about Manifest Destiny as well since Hezbollah is an Arab group with roots in Iran. Arabs as a whole aare nopt taive to the rergion, Jews are. Lebanon in fact was created by the French!If Israel wanted any of that horrid land it could have had it all in the early 8os when we rolld to the Presidential Palace just about unopposed.
It is like throwing a rock at a group of people.
Wrong about Manifest Destiny as well since Hezbollah is an Arab group with roots in Iran. Arabs as a whole aare nopt taive to the rergion, Jews are. Lebanon in fact was created by the French!If Israel wanted any of that horrid land it could have had it all in the early 8os when we rolld to the Presidential Palace just about unopposed.
Just to prove it
"This message is hidden because rachamim18 is on your ignore list."
Bloody Israeli-American warmonger. Does'nt surprise me that the only decent leader your country had in recent times got assassinated by an American Israeli, you guys just love killing. We love peace.
"This message is hidden because rachamim18 is on your ignore list."
Bloody Israeli-American warmonger. Does'nt surprise me that the only decent leader your country had in recent times got assassinated by an American Israeli, you guys just love killing. We love peace.
moono said:
You really should go and get a reality check. Aren't they free on the NHS?
Lock&Light said:
A reality check is sorely required. We need to find out what motivated Israel to kill UN observers, even after 5 hours of calls warning Israeli military that impartial observers were based there. In reality, that's yet another war crime to add to Israel's collection.
Evidently, bombing buses and suicide attacks are also bad - but do two wrongs make a right in the Middle East? I consider that most unlikely.
There's a simple test for politics. Reducing it to the level of how you and your neighbours behave when in dispute. Violence is a mark of failure. Clearly both sides have failed to find meaningful dialogue. Israel is the strongest party, therefore it must bear the responsibility of leading by example. That means eschewing the bullies path, and establishing real dialogue.
If Israel begins to treat ordinary arabs with respect, ordinary arabs will be happy and extremists will lose their support. But as long as Israel acts like an extremist, then extremists on the other side will gain power.
Jaw-jaw, not war-war.
Just like any neighbourhood.
It's also incredibly selfish of all sides to create so much instability in a part of the world that is so very holy to so many. It means many who like to visit there are scared to do so. Anyone who is curious about humanity's cultural history has a right to tell all sides to sit down, shut up, and behave. We have rights to the land all this is taking place on, because that land is essential to our history.
If they were travel agents, i'd sack them.
L&L
I'm tired of feeding you logic, L&L. Fuck off.
Mush. Go get one yourself. The Zionists deliberately murdered UN observers. Now the reports are being checked of when and where they used phosphorus and cluster munitions. What else might those observers have witnessed and reported ?
I'm tired of feeding you logic, L&L. Fuck off.
moono said:
If I were to fuck off it would be because I'm tired of your one-sided hectoring.
Rachamim;
You still don't understand, do you. Any list compiled by the IOF is worthless. They are a known terrorist and war criminal organisation, albeit not listed as such by their arms suppliers.
If Hamas launch a counter-attack, they say so. Rockets fired into Israel over the Hamas ceasefire period were all claimed by resistance groups. Not only was responsibility claimed but these groups published details of the Zionist atrocities which the launches were intended to avenge.
That's twice I've stuffed your 'list', liarboy. Don't wave it again.
You still don't understand, do you. Any list compiled by the IOF is worthless. They are a known terrorist and war criminal organisation, albeit not listed as such by their arms suppliers.
If Hamas launch a counter-attack, they say so. Rockets fired into Israel over the Hamas ceasefire period were all claimed by resistance groups. Not only was responsibility claimed but these groups published details of the Zionist atrocities which the launches were intended to avenge.
That's twice I've stuffed your 'list', liarboy. Don't wave it again.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
rachamim18 said:
I know the difference between guided and unguided missiles my friend, but even the V2 as an unguided missile was able to hit civilian targets in London with alarming accuracy, and that was 70 bollocking years ago. so long as you have the giro's to shoot your rocket in a straight line, and can estimate the weapons flight time to within a few hundred meters, than you've a fairly descent chance of hiting a known complex if you fire a few of em. Unfortunately you've also a fairly descent chance of missing and hitting something else. This is absolutely no better than Isreal and Americas measly excuses when they blow away hospitals and schools and residentual blocks etc. And by the casualties alone, the onus is far more upon Isreal to justify the use of its rockets, to explain juts what it was trying to hit in amongst the thousands of Lebanese civilians it has slain.
Rocketmen: Curse me, berate me, then tell me I am on your ignore list. Now that IS what I call discourse!!!
Seems to be a problem though as I am certainly nopt on your ignore list.
Rabin was not assasinated by an American Israeli but by an Israeli of emeno descent. Funny how we Jews fvrom Arab lands seem to be the most right wing of the lot. You foreigners seem to have it backwards on that count.
"what motivated the IDF to kill UN Oservers...?" Well, for one, it could have been that that very same UNIFIL station was the one where the personel saty avbout joking AND FILMING in 2000 as Hezbollah did another cross border raid and kidnapped 3 of IDF at gunpoint. Not only diud UNIFIL not raise a finger to even slow the criminals down, they kept right on filiming.
As the International uproar rose to a cescendo, ther UN finally admitted [after many sworn denials] that in fact it did witness the event but was in no poisition to do anything. Then the mutilated body parts of thge three kidnapped IDF were strew about wadi on both sides of the border.
International condemnation was at a fever pitch so that UNIFIL under orders of the Sec. General then admitted it did in fact not only have personel who witnessed the attack but who actually filmed it! So, to aid in investigating the incident the tape was turned over to the Israei authorities...EXCEPT that all Hezbollah, et al faces and identifying marks had been censored out!!!!!
Easy to understand then that there has been a bit or anomosity toawards those worthless dregsa since that time. Not to say that they had much worth before that witheir turning tail and running at first sign of any trouble.
Seems to be a problem though as I am certainly nopt on your ignore list.
Rabin was not assasinated by an American Israeli but by an Israeli of emeno descent. Funny how we Jews fvrom Arab lands seem to be the most right wing of the lot. You foreigners seem to have it backwards on that count.
"what motivated the IDF to kill UN Oservers...?" Well, for one, it could have been that that very same UNIFIL station was the one where the personel saty avbout joking AND FILMING in 2000 as Hezbollah did another cross border raid and kidnapped 3 of IDF at gunpoint. Not only diud UNIFIL not raise a finger to even slow the criminals down, they kept right on filiming.
As the International uproar rose to a cescendo, ther UN finally admitted [after many sworn denials] that in fact it did witness the event but was in no poisition to do anything. Then the mutilated body parts of thge three kidnapped IDF were strew about wadi on both sides of the border.
International condemnation was at a fever pitch so that UNIFIL under orders of the Sec. General then admitted it did in fact not only have personel who witnessed the attack but who actually filmed it! So, to aid in investigating the incident the tape was turned over to the Israei authorities...EXCEPT that all Hezbollah, et al faces and identifying marks had been censored out!!!!!
Easy to understand then that there has been a bit or anomosity toawards those worthless dregsa since that time. Not to say that they had much worth before that witheir turning tail and running at first sign of any trouble.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Did the IDF establish that it was the same soldiers in the UN post as at that time?
Or do they just have a bit of a grudge against the UN forces generally?
Or do they just have a bit of a grudge against the UN forces generally?
Rocketman: Still nopt on your ignore list but I'll ignore than from now on....
Israel DOES treat Arabs with more respect than any Arab regime does. It is the only nation in the enntire Mid-East that not only allows homosexuals complete freedom but offered those from Arab nations refugee status and shelters them.
As for Israeli-Arabs who make up roughly 18% of our Population. They have every right any other Israei has. Peeopl do speak of glaring discrepancies in areas of education and municipal services but these are related to the tax base.
Still, an Israeli-Arab may live, study, work, shop, date, and marry whopmever they wish without fear of retribution by the state. There is the freedom to vote. Honour Killing is much, much raree than in Arab or other Muwslim nation. Women are allowed to work and drive and can leave their husbands if need be and stay in domestic violence shelters. Mifght sound mundane to many but in this part of the world ity is on the border of revolutionary...as some in the UK should know withg the recent Pakistani honour killing taking up a chunk of your media.
Your talk og "meaningful dialog" means that you know precious little of the situation. Hezbollah i fully committed to Israel's urtter destructuion and denies its existence so no dialog, meaningful or otherwise is possible.
Your presumption that anyone with a culturqal or religious interest in the region then has the right to dictate terms tio the two sides is pompous at best. I won't even touch on worst out of my yearning for civility.
I love Roman architecture...I think I'll dictate Italian politics....
Moono: I do nopt use anything by the IDF when offering statistics. I offered , in that case, THW among others. Try some humility on top pf scholarship.
The IDF is known as a terrorist and war crime organisation? By whom? A dose of reality please.
"Rockets fired during the cease fire were all claimed by resistance groups." First, I have the date, you are wrong. Claimed high and dry by your heros HAMAS> Secondly, when Israel has completely left Gaza, what "resistamnce"is there? To reality?
Foreinger: "Onus on Israel." Very simple. Hezbollah is next, beside, under, and on top of civilians. there is no humanly way possible to avoid collateral damage , save Hezbollah coming out of their rat tunnels. Even then there will be some but they would be much less than currently seen.
Also, V2s were used on much different terrain. I can throw a water ballon off the top of most any skyscraper back in New Yoprk and seriously damage a person. If i try it in a rural 2 story town it will be a much different result.
Oh, and instead of editing my previous post, the assasin of Ranbin was of Yemeni descent.
Israel DOES treat Arabs with more respect than any Arab regime does. It is the only nation in the enntire Mid-East that not only allows homosexuals complete freedom but offered those from Arab nations refugee status and shelters them.
As for Israeli-Arabs who make up roughly 18% of our Population. They have every right any other Israei has. Peeopl do speak of glaring discrepancies in areas of education and municipal services but these are related to the tax base.
Still, an Israeli-Arab may live, study, work, shop, date, and marry whopmever they wish without fear of retribution by the state. There is the freedom to vote. Honour Killing is much, much raree than in Arab or other Muwslim nation. Women are allowed to work and drive and can leave their husbands if need be and stay in domestic violence shelters. Mifght sound mundane to many but in this part of the world ity is on the border of revolutionary...as some in the UK should know withg the recent Pakistani honour killing taking up a chunk of your media.
Your talk og "meaningful dialog" means that you know precious little of the situation. Hezbollah i fully committed to Israel's urtter destructuion and denies its existence so no dialog, meaningful or otherwise is possible.
Your presumption that anyone with a culturqal or religious interest in the region then has the right to dictate terms tio the two sides is pompous at best. I won't even touch on worst out of my yearning for civility.
I love Roman architecture...I think I'll dictate Italian politics....
Moono: I do nopt use anything by the IDF when offering statistics. I offered , in that case, THW among others. Try some humility on top pf scholarship.
The IDF is known as a terrorist and war crime organisation? By whom? A dose of reality please.
"Rockets fired during the cease fire were all claimed by resistance groups." First, I have the date, you are wrong. Claimed high and dry by your heros HAMAS> Secondly, when Israel has completely left Gaza, what "resistamnce"is there? To reality?
Foreinger: "Onus on Israel." Very simple. Hezbollah is next, beside, under, and on top of civilians. there is no humanly way possible to avoid collateral damage , save Hezbollah coming out of their rat tunnels. Even then there will be some but they would be much less than currently seen.
Also, V2s were used on much different terrain. I can throw a water ballon off the top of most any skyscraper back in New Yoprk and seriously damage a person. If i try it in a rural 2 story town it will be a much different result.
Oh, and instead of editing my previous post, the assasin of Ranbin was of Yemeni descent.
At a guess I'd say that the man knows too much about the Hariri assassination investigation, for which America succeeded in blaming Syria and so resulting in the Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon.
We all know what happened to Lebanon without Syrian troops there.
Waddya reckon ? Too cynical ?
A targeted assassination attempt at a police investigator into Hariri's murder doesn't need cynical observers to point out that it's extremely dodgy. But it's just as likely a revenge attack by Syrian intelligence or to attempt to stop further digging into their affairs.
What difference do you think the ragtag of Syrian troops could have made to the southern Lebanon war, other than dragging Syria and possibly Iran into the conflict much more quickly?
What difference do you think the ragtag of Syrian troops could have made to the southern Lebanon war, other than dragging Syria and possibly Iran into the conflict much more quickly?
Of course not, but I fail to see how it would have lead to a better situation than you've described for southern Lebanon if you had Syrian and Iranian troops involved down there as well.moono said:
You could argue that the Israelis would not have attacked in the same way, but something would have had to give at some stage.
untethered said:
And they are "terrorists" because they are members of a democratically elected government which the US and Israel don't like???
Don't forget there have been real terrorists [like Sharon] in the Israeli government backed by US money.
Depends whether or not your definition of 'terrorist' is the one used by the US and Israel - who include everyone who opposes them. Murderers like Sharon get a free pass.
ZAMB: AGAIN: They are terrorists simply because they commit random acts of violence against civilians to further their political agenda. Having been democratically elected and/or being hated by Western nations does not negate the fact that International Law labels them an outlaw organisation.
Israel is a legal entity, ratified into existence by the UN. Sharon has never been a terrorist although some of his actions in the 50s are certainly questionable.
Israel is not "backed" by any other nation, or its money. Please do the relevant research.
Israel is a legal entity, ratified into existence by the UN. Sharon has never been a terrorist although some of his actions in the 50s are certainly questionable.
Israel is not "backed" by any other nation, or its money. Please do the relevant research.
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