Hezbollah Reconstructing Lebanon
- Thread starter slaar
- Start date
The Lebanese state has historicallt been very very weak. It was the price to pay to acheive national unity and independence... each community was left to its own devices. Historically, the Shiaa were the poorest and marginalised of the lot. This has changed now but there is still considerable patronage going on.
I can't see why anyone is surprised that Hizbullah is stepping into the void left by the Lebanese government (and the Israeli war machinery) and helping its own constituents.
I can't see why anyone is surprised that Hizbullah is stepping into the void left by the Lebanese government (and the Israeli war machinery) and helping its own constituents.
Roadkill said:
Probably in roughly the same state as any other developing world state with nothing much Western powers can exploit, so facing poverty, disease and permanent war.
Billions of us on a planet, millions of years of evolution, and even aetheists can't figure out how to create a heaven on earth. Sad, really, isn't it?
We could make a start by discussion and compromise, and transfer arms spending into research for renewable, environmentallly friendly power supplies. If there was any change we could perhaps tackle AIDS, poverty and hunger. Couldn't we?
rocketman said:
Yup. Much like Africa, probably: dirt-poor, fucked over by colonialism, shut out of selling its manufactures on the world market by first-world protectionism and relegated to the status of primary producer at the mercy of world commodity prices.
isn't capitalism wonderful?
Roadkill said:
And that is also probably why those on the outside of our oh-so-comfy capitalist loop are so happy to embrace religion as an alternate way of life. And that's what we are up against. Capitalism must be reined in if we are ever to solve these problems. Inequality creates resentment, resentment creates anger, anger creates war, and war solves nothing.
Pogo: "Can't bomb these organisations into oblivion since they have a long history of social welfare within the community, ensuring their long survival." The effected people have thousands of years history of invaders coming and going and are amazingly adept at flourishing.
Unteheredd: "Would like Israel to be more democratic and law abiding." How is it not? It is the only liberal democracy in entire region! Please be more specific,
Rennie: Perfect post on Shia.
Unteheredd: "Would like Israel to be more democratic and law abiding." How is it not? It is the only liberal democracy in entire region! Please be more specific,
Rennie: Perfect post on Shia.
Ah so that's alright then. Carry on bombing them, Israel, they know ho to survive it. DReadful outlook.rachamim18 said:
rachamim18 said:
Liberal?
The guy who blew the whistle on the Israeli nuke programme is still in jail. He was Israeli.
The people kidnapped by Israeli troops, they are in jail without charge.
Finally, why do the Israeli equivalents of the 'Mad Mullahs', the nodding Zionists who wear black and hats. Why are they not required to serve in Israel's army, when they do get the right to vote on whether the country goes to war? (And invariably vote in favour of that). Why are they able to send their countrymen into danger without being required to go into war themselves, or to send their children?
Liberal?
Pull the other one.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
rocketman said:
Fucking-A.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Pogo Mushroom said:
I don't get why everything the Hez does for it's people (the Lebonese) is caste in this machiavellian It's-merely-a-clever-calculation type frame, at the end of the day the Hez is made up of the people that it serves, (majority shi'ite to be sure, but the Shi'ites are also the majority in the parts of Lebanon that Isreal flattens). Why give it the spin? Because the Hez is opposing Isreal and it';s western backers, therefore they must be evil up there with Spectre and all the other evil megalomaniac organizations out there. As far as I can see (mind you I'm a staunch athiest and have no time for suicide bombers and attacks on civilians) Hezbollah have every right to exist and their values be taken at face value. They've even stated on their website that they aren't out to turn Lebanon into an islamic sharia state (probably because they value the support of the sunni's and non-muslims of Lebanon as well).
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Pogo Mushroom said:
I disagree, I think everyone wants both peace and justice. what's happening in the ME is democracies keep voting for parties that the US and Isreal and therefore the UK too, don't like. So that means (according to some) they've twisted democracy, they're holding it by the leg, they don't get it, etc etc.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
untethered said:
I think it's useful to define what people mean when they say 'terrorist'. Because effectively saying "arresting those who oppose or resist us" doesn't cut it. And besides, Isreal arrests all sorts of people that it then detains without trial, both Isreal and the US have a long history of employing terrorism and state terrorism as well, but nobody ever clamours for the arrest of people in the Isreali or US state, in fact most of us would be shocked and horrified if certain statemen and generals were arrested, even though perfectly sound cases could be made for doing so.
Isreal itself was founded on a campaign of terrorism, if Palistinians and other nations in the ME call for the destrution of the Isreali state, I don't think that's the same as calling for genocide, calling for the destruction of the state of aparthied South Africa wasn't calling for genocide, calling for the destruction of a 'racial/religious' colonial state founded by an act of terror doesn't seem "beyond the pale" to me either. Calling for the killing of Jews is out of order, but that really is more a Christian/European tradition.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
untethered
For industry & decency
foreigner said:
Indiscriminate suicide bombing of civilian targets. Classic Hamas tactics.
No real achievable military objective. Just, let's take out a few civilians here and there and hope it grinds them down over a few years.
I've got no sympathy for the Hamas leadership. If you want to take a civilian perspective, they're criminals that have been arrested. If you want to take a military perspective, they're soldiers that have been captured.
Either way, it goes with the territory. Their behaviour is inherently immoral and can't be supported, regardless of the supposed merits of their political objectives.
Yet if you were asked how many Palestinians the Zionists killed between 2004. when Hamas began their unilateral ceasefire, killing NO ISRAELIS AT ALL and June of this year, when they ended it due to the indiscriminate shelling, by Israel, of civilians on a Palestinian beach, the figure you would come up with would be ........?
10 ?
75 ?
150 ?
425 ?
Have a stab at it. Fill in the empty score line;
Hamas 0 Zionists ........
untethered
For industry & decency
It's not about numbers. It's about living ethically/morally. By that token, Israel has a lot to answer for, too. But that doesn't make Hamas's tactics acceptable.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
rennie said:
In bold, my point precisely.
I intend, by means of the numbers, to challenge your belief that Zionism is moral and Hamas are not.
Go on, hazard a guess. How many Palestinians did they kill, men , women and children, lots of children, while Hamas held their fire and moved towards a political approach ?
600 ?
untethered
For industry & decency
I'd say that if you kill one person for no good reason, that's immoral.
I'm not defending everything Israel does. I'm just not defending Hamas on the basis that Israel might possibly be worse by value of "numbers" or some other arbitrary criterion.
There is such a thing as legitimate militarism. There's no such thing as legitimate terrorism. Israel has often crossed the line into illegitimate militarism. Hamas tend to live there permanently. Is that clear enough?
I'm not defending everything Israel does. I'm just not defending Hamas on the basis that Israel might possibly be worse by value of "numbers" or some other arbitrary criterion.
There is such a thing as legitimate militarism. There's no such thing as legitimate terrorism. Israel has often crossed the line into illegitimate militarism. Hamas tend to live there permanently. Is that clear enough?
It's clear another that you're another Dumpty with a limp.
The correct answer is in excess of 800. The Zionists murdered over 800 Palestinians whilst the 'terrorist' organisation, Hamas, killed nobody. Instead of killing they became the elected Palestinian government. That's when your slighty- less- than- moral champions starved Palestine and assaulted Gaza.
Casualty Statistics
http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/219.shtml
The correct answer is in excess of 800. The Zionists murdered over 800 Palestinians whilst the 'terrorist' organisation, Hamas, killed nobody. Instead of killing they became the elected Palestinian government. That's when your slighty- less- than- moral champions starved Palestine and assaulted Gaza.
Casualty Statistics
http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/219.shtml
scott_forester
probably talking shite
moono said:
Must be nice to live and a black and white World, unless you're a snooker fan.
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