He's not a racist - but he is - Boris aide quits

[Lord Camomile]

So why resign Cam?

That muddies the water somewhat, but I can't help feeling that it's too easyily possible that, regardless of his true feelings, the public perception would cause too many problems. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time perception has triumphed over facts.

Whether he is a rascist or not is not the point I'm trying to make though, simply that that one comment does not 'out' him as one.

 

[TitanSound]

simply that that one comment does not 'out' him as one.

Exactly how I feel about it.

 

[STFC]

So he resigned for no reason then? Martyred by the PC police.

That's about the strength of it, yes.

 

[belboid]

Dear me, such nonsense! (hardly surprising from the likes of STFC, a bit more so from Lord Cam)

Of course the man was being racist, ffs.

When the comments were made re the tories, they referred to a specific and very small number of explicit individuals. The likes of Collins and Daniels, not a wider cross-section of people. If it helps, I'm happy to say I'm a 'collinsist' or whatever the appropriate word would be. He can fuck off, and I still wish he would.

In this case tho, it is totally different. Blokey was asked about a wide group of people - people who have (arguably) good reason to fear a BJ mayoralcy. A more correct response would be along the lines of 'I think it is a great shame people view Boris in that way, he is certainly no racist and I am sure they will see from his actions that they have nothing to fear from him being the Mayor.' Instead he said 'fuck them.' That gives a clear view about his attitude to those people, to black people.

 

[TitanSound]

Personally I think he would have given the same response no matter what "group" of people were presented before him.

 

[editor]

He didn't say "get rid of all the darkies", or even "go back where they came from", he said "those who don't like us can bugger off".

And "us" being who exactly?

He was a senior advisor appointed by Boris (who has gone on record calling black children “piccaninnies” and saying that black people had “water melon smiles”) to advise on issues affecting a massively multicultural London.

His advice that immigrant blacks could leave the country if they don't like the Tory administration was offensive and deeply misguided at best and downright racist at worst.

And look at the charmers that have been stirred up on the Times website in response:

When is some public figure going to have the backbone to stand up to the weasels in the political correctness/anti racism industry? Richard Barnbrook is doing a splended job on our behalf. It's a pity others don't have the same courage. More BNP Assembly members will stop the rot.
Isaac Brown, Nottingham, UK

James of London is speaking common sense.
Many English people I know dont consider London an English city anymore, its full of foreign people who have arrived in the last 50 years & is not representative of the real English culture that exists outside of London.
Tim, Stratford on avon,

 

[_angel_]

He didn't say "fuck off back to X", he said that if anyone wants to leave, they can. Again, there's no indication he only thinks this about people who aren't British. That muddies the water somewhat, but I can't help feeling that it's too easyily possible that, regardless of his true feelings, the public perception would cause too many problems. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time perception has triumphed over facts.

Whether he is a rascist or not is not the point I'm trying to make though, simply that that one comment does not 'out' him as one.

You're missing my point. I didn't say it was racist exactly just incredibly arrogant to assume any group of people should 'go if they don't like it' because conservatives have basically said 'we're not interested in you, or your opinions'.

 

[Melinda]

So instead Boris decides to look like he is kowtowing to 'PC paranoia'?

If it were just an adverse interpretation of an off-hand comment, then McGrath should have resisted the call to resign, because Boris now looks shady to all sides.


In any case, I dont believe you could make that type of off hand comment if it wasnt uppermost in your mind.

 

[STFC]

Personally I think he would have given the same response no matter what "group" of people were presented before him.

Exactly.

It was put to him that Group A might leave. The response was that if Group A wants to leave, it can. The demographic of Group A is totally irrelevant.

May I just add that Darcus Howe is a twat.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Dear me, such nonsense! (hardly surprising from the likes of STFC, a bit more so from Lord Cam)

Of course the man was being racist, ffs.

When the comments were made re the tories, they referred to a specific and very small number of explicit individuals. The likes of Collins and Daniels, not a wider cross-section of people. If it helps, I'm happy to say I'm a 'collinsist' or whatever the appropriate word would be. He can fuck off, and I still wish he would.

In this case tho, it is totally different. Blokey was asked about a wide group of people - people who have (arguably) good reason to fear a BJ mayoralcy. A more correct response would be along the lines of 'I think it is a great shame people view Boris in that way, he is certainly no racist and I am sure they will see from his actions that they have nothing to fear from him being the Mayor.' Instead he said 'fuck them.' That gives a clear view about his attitude to those people, to black people.

Fair enough, I just thought it could be interpreted as a more general attitude of not caring about those who disagree, whoever they may be.

For example: "a lot of fishmongers say they're going to leave" "Ok, let them leave".

Also, there is a difference between telling someone to leave, and letting them leave if they say they're going to. I have no insight into the history of all this, but it was Howe that raised the issue of "a mass exodus of older Caribbean migrants back to our homelands". McGrath simply responded to that comment by saying "let them go", not "Thank christ for that, the term 'urban jungle' was becoming all too literal round these parts".

 

[Melinda]

And "us" being who exactly?

He was a senior advisor appointed by Boris (who has gone on record calling black children “piccaninnies” and saying that black people had “water melon smiles”) to advise on issues affecting a massively multicultural London.

His advice that immigrant blacks could leave the country if they don't like the Tory administration was offensive and deeply misguided at best and downright racist at worst.

And look at the charmers that have been stirred up on the Times website in response:

Agreed.
The comments on the Times site made me bristle. That Stratford twat especially.

 

[exosculate]

Agreed.
The comments on the Times site made me bristle. That Stratford twat especially.

Whose the Stratford twat?

 

[belboid]

Exactly.

It was put to him that Group A might leave. The response was that if Group A wants to leave, it can. The demographic of Group A is totally irrelevant.

May I just add that Darcus Howe is a twat.

Not as big a twat as you, of course, but that would be difficult.

Your argument re the 'demographic' is also nonsense - if it was the rich, or nice businessmen you can bet everything you have that he would have said something totally and utterly different. But the REALITY is - the bloke doesn't give a fuck about black people, quite simple really.

 

[Melinda]

Whose the Stratford twat?

James of London is speaking common sense.
Many English people I know dont consider London an English city anymore, its full of foreign people who have arrived in the last 50 years & is not representative of the real English culture that exists outside of London.
Tim, Stratford on avon,

A poster on the Times site I'd noticed earlier- Ed quoted him above.

 

[Lord Camomile]

And "us" being who exactly?

He was a senior advisor appointed by Boris (who has gone on record calling black children “piccaninnies” and saying that black people had “water melon smiles”) to advise on issues affecting a massively multicultural London.

His advice that immigrant blacks could leave the country if they don't like the Tory administration was offensive and deeply misguided at best and downright racist at worst.

Yeah, it was certainly a dumb comment, but there are dumb comments, and there are rascist comment, and I just don't think this is clear-cut the latter.

By "us" I meant the Johnson administration, as that would appear to be who the people Howe talked about have a problem with, and the people who McGrath was, up until recently, a member of.

So instead Boris decides to look like he is kowtowing to 'PC paranoia'?

If it were just an adverse interpretation of an off-hand comment, then McGrath should have resisted the call to resign, because Boris now looks shady to all sides.

I think Boris' history in these matters didn't help matters, because there's already that impression of his administration anyway.

It may just be a case of McGrath not feeling strong enough to deal with the storm, whereas Livingstone was when he made the comments to the Jewish reporter (I was on Livingstone's side on that, before anyone tries to paint me as anti-Ken). There were calls for Livingstone to resign then, but he didn't.

 

[belboid]

the comment, in an of itself, isn't inherently rascist.

so, how would you describe not giving a fuck about black people?

 

[dennisr]

A poster on the Times site I'd noticed earlier- Ed quoted him above.

He should fuck off back to Stratford-upon -avon then

to add: I think there are more important issues that the mayor and his cohorts could be exposed for than this

 

[Lord Camomile]

so, how would you describe not giving a fuck about black people?

Once again, you can't tell whether he is saying he doesn't give a fuck about black people, or he doesn't give a fuck about people who want to leave the jurisdiction of his administration because they don't like his administration.

Neither paint him as a particularly great bloke, but as this thread proves, one interpretation is so much more volatile than the other.

 

[belboid]

to add: I think there are more important issues that the mayor and his cohorts could be exposed for than this

give him (a very short amount of) time, and I'm sure he will be

 

[d.a.s.h]

Blokey was asked about a wide group of people - people who have (arguably) good reason to fear a BJ mayoralcy. A more correct response would be along the lines of 'I think it is a great shame people view Boris in that way, he is certainly no racist and I am sure they will see from his actions that they have nothing to fear from him being the Mayor.' Instead he said 'fuck them.' That gives a clear view about his attitude to those people, to black people.

More specifically, Marc Wadsworth, who is definitely a man of the Left and a veteran of organisations like the Anti Racist Alliance, asked for McGrath's response to the 'exodus' comments made by Darcus Howe.

I really, really doubt that Wadsworth's question was anything other than a tactical move. Wadsworth must have calculated that as a bullish Australian conservative, McGrath would fall into the trap by calling Howe's bluff, which is what he did.

You're right, there's many other ways McGrath could have answered that question, if he'd had any sense.

 

[belboid]

Once again, you can't tell whether he is saying he doesn't give a fuck about black people, or he doesn't give a fuck about people who want to leave the jurisdiction of his administration because they don't like his administration.

Neither paint him as a particularly great bloke, but as this thread proves, one interpretation is so much more volatile than the other.

The man was asked about black people who might want to leave. He explicitly doesn't give a fuck about them. He thinks, it would seem, that they have nothing to offer London. As I said before - do you think he would say the same about businessmen, or other nice 'wealth creators'? It is quite possible he would say the same about some other demographics, but that wouldn't make him non-racist, it would just make him an even bigger turd.

 

[scifisam]

Exactly.

It was put to him that Group A might leave. The response was that if Group A wants to leave, it can. The demographic of Group A is totally irrelevant.

I think that's entirely possible, but also disturbing. It says 'you disagree with us? Fuck you, then.' But elected representatives are supposed to represent all their constituents, not just the ones who like them.

So maybe not racist, but still nasty. Enough to lose your job over? I reckon not, personally.

From the BBC article:

Mr Johnson said he knew Mr McGrath was "not a racist", but the remarks made it "impossible" for him to keep his job.

If he's not a racist, then bloody well stand up for him. Don't tell him to sacrifice his career to save your reputation.

 

[Melinda]

Once again, you can't tell whether he is saying he doesn't give a fuck about black people, or he doesn't give a fuck about people who want to leave the jurisdiction of his administration because they don't like his administration.

Neither paint him as a particularly great bloke, but as this thread proves, one interpretation is so much more volatile than the other.

See, I think that is too much benefit of the doubt. There is no way any one could say 'Then let them leave' unless its an instinctive opinion.

If he were talking about millionaire non-doms, he would have said something completely different.

 

[STFC]

Not as big a twat as you, of course, but that would be difficult.

Your argument re the 'demographic' is also nonsense - if it was the rich, or nice businessmen you can bet everything you have that he would have said something totally and utterly different. But the REALITY is - the bloke doesn't give a fuck about black people, quite simple really.

If I had access to the audience that Howe has, I would be an even bigger twat, you can be sure of that.

McGrath's response was ill-advised, but not racist. Of course, you (O wise one) know what the REALITY is, and you put it in capitals so it must be true.

 

[editor]

Once again, you can't tell whether he is saying he doesn't give a fuck about black people, or he doesn't give a fuck about people who want to leave the jurisdiction of his administration because they don't like his administration.

Boris hired this clown as his advisor which strongly suggests that he fully endorses his opinions and politics.

McGrath has only been in the job ten minutes and has already let it slip that he appears to not give a fuck about black people unless they're Tory voters.

It's not a good start and reflects very badly on Boris's judgement - even more so considering his own dubious comments in the past.

 

[Lord Camomile]

The man was asked about black people who might want to leave. He explicitly doesn't give a fuck about them. He thinks, it would seem, that they have nothing to offer London. As I said before - do you think he would say the same about businessmen, or other nice 'wealth creators'? It is quite possible he would say the same about some other demographics, but that wouldn't make him non-racist, it would just make him an even bigger turd.

Of course it wouldn't make him non-racist, it would have no value one way or the other to his racisim.

I have no idea whether he would say the same "about businessmen, or other nice 'wealth creators'", and that's my point: without knowing if he would, we don't know if these comments were specific to black people, and thus racist, or just people in general, and thus arrogant and wankerish.

I'm not making a value judgement on if he is racist or he isn't racist, simply that I don't think this comment can be used in isolation to call him one.

He may well be a racist of such epic proportions that Bernard Manning would, were he still alive, say he was "a little intolerant", but this comment doesn't tell us that, and that was my original point all those posts ago.

 

[belboid]

If I had access to the audience that Howe has, I would be an even bigger twat, you can be sure of that.

McGrath's response was ill-advised, but not racist. Of course, you (O wise one) know what the REALITY is, and you put it in capitals so it must be true.

You, likewise, claim to 'know'.

Unsurprisingly, you choose to know that he is a good bloke really.

 

[kyser_soze]

Belboid - have you met this guy? How much do you know about his life, work and how he's behaved towards ethnic groups in the past?

You don't - you're basing it on one comment made in reply to an equally stupid one by Darcus Howe, yet you are happy to call the guy a racist.

 

[Lord Camomile]

It's not a good start and reflects very badly on Boris's judgement - even more so considering his own dubious comments in the past.

See, you're putting this comment in the context of Boris, and his past, so Boris has tried to remove himself from the firing line as much as possible by getting rid of McGrath. Would you have been more or less critical of Boris if he had stood by McGrath? It was pretty much a lose-lose situation for Boris, either stand by McGrath and compound the opinions against him, or get rid of McGrath and appear to be caving to the 'PC Police'.

 

[exosculate]

Belboid - have you met this guy? How much do you know about his life, work and how he's behaved towards ethnic groups in the past?

You don't - you're basing it on one comment made in reply to an equally stupid one by Darcus Howe, yet you are happy to call the guy a racist.

I think there is a view that most Conservatives are racist, amongst a significant section of the left.