Help children and dyslexics, make English more phonetic in its spelling,

[LilMissHissyFit]

G Marthews I think perhaps it might help if you look at the language you choose to use when describing a group of people? Because you do come accross as offensive and since Im included in your sweeping generalisations I am entitled to tell you that.
Its got nothing to do with you trying to come accross as all virtuous and 'helping' dyslexics. Its about you not being aware of the issues which affect dyslexics. Indeed it wasnt too long ago you were claiming there was no such thing, that it was all down to a laziness on the part of the child.....
and YES I and others were really insulted by that too.

for the record I AM dyslexic, as are my children... two so severely they need to attend a special school. something regulars here are well aware of and have supported us in very real ways over while we fought through the courts to get funding for it for one and since.
so yeah, I think Im entitled to put it on the record that Im not anti dyslexic, Im also very insulted reading you labelling my children and I and also our friends and users here as "The poorest parts of society"

 

[Nemo]

Exactly! What a stupid reason!!

Why stupid? It's a Greek word, so why should we mess about with the spelling?

What evidence would convince you?

Well, some would be a start.

 

[8ball]

Everyone can speak Welsh if they want to use a phonetic language.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Everyone can speak Welsh if they want to use a phonetic language.

Welsh speakers have difficulty with the welh language too.....
There are dyslexic children in welsh schools struggling with reading and writing two languages.. no matter which language is their first language

 

[Gmart]

It is your insistence on getting uppity and sensitive which is preventing you from engaging in a decent debate. The moment it gets anywhere interesting you get all hurt about some minor PC infringement, and in this case attack someone actively engaged in trying to help this condition.

Alienating people who are helping is hardly gonna be the best policy is it? Much better to add something worthwhile, rather than bring up age old issues from years back.

Look forward! Do you feel that the current regime is adequately addressing the dyslexia problem? What did you think of the need to keep children in the same school so that they could be with their friends which you didn't comment earlier? Would you prefer to isolate the children even more than they no doubt feel already with their condition?

 

[8ball]

Welsh is highly phonetic, though.

 

[Gmart]

Why stupid? It's a Greek word, so why should we mess about with the spelling?

Because WE (ie NOT the Greeks) don't say it like that!

 

[8ball]

Because WE (ie NOT the Greeks) don't say it like that!

Then again, how 'we' say something in Essex ain't necessarily how 'we' say it in Newcastle . . .

 

[Gmart]

Im also very insulted reading you labelling my children and I and also our friends and users here as "The poorest parts of society"

Until people recognise that illiteracy and poverty go hand in hand etc...

 

[8ball]

LMHF - I don't know much about dyslexia so allow me a dumb question . .

Would spelling words phonetically actually help out a lot or is that a bit of a red herring?

e2a - ignore me - have caught up on whole thread now.

e3a - and ignore Gmarthews too - I don't think he's deliberately trying to be offensive but I think the charm school owes him a refund

 

[maomao]

Firstly, I think we all mean phonemic spelling rather than phonetic. True phonetic script is a huge pain in the arse. (You'd need a different 'p' for 'pin' and 'spin' for example)

I'm aware of no evidence whatsoever that a phonemic script would be of any help to any but the mildest forms of dyslexia, it is however interesting that dyslexics fare much better with logographic and hierogliphic systems. If you really cared about dyslexics Gmarthews you'd be campaigning for us to use either Chinese or Ancient Egyptian writing.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

It is your insistence on getting uppity and sensitive which is preventing you from engaging in a decent debate. The moment it gets anywhere interesting you get all hurt about some minor PC infringement, and in this case attack someone actively engaged in trying to help this condition.

Alienating people who are helping is hardly gonna be the best policy is it? Much better to add something worthwhile, rather than bring up age old issues from years back.

Look forward! Do you feel that the current regime is adequately addressing the dyslexia problem? What did you think of the need to keep children in the same school so that they could be with their friends which you didn't comment earlier? Would you prefer to isolate the children even more than they no doubt feel already with their condition?

Dear god.. so is it ok with you to rename black people darkies, wogs or asian people pakis, curry eaters etc because after all, thats not offensive, just a minor PC infringement?
Of course not.

Not pleasee, try and moderate how you talk about people.
Youve placed on record before the disdain with which you view people with Dyslexia... Im afraid your prejudice shouws through glaringly in the language you use when you talk about groups of people and forgive me if I dont class you as someone who is trying to help people with Dyslexia.
Youve clearly not really researched the effects of dyslexia before youve posted this thread.

 

[Orang Utan]

Because WE (ie NOT the Greeks) don't say it like that!

Yes we do

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Firstly, I think we all mean phonemic spelling rather than phonetic. True phonetic script is a huge pain in the arse. (You'd need a different 'p' for 'pin' and 'spin' for example)

I'm aware of no evidence whatsoever that a phonemic script would be of any help to any but the mildest forms of dyslexia, it is however interesting that dyslexics fare much better with logographic and hierogliphic systems. If you really cared about dyslexics Gmarthews you'd be campaigning for us to use either Chinese or Ancient Egyptian writing.

QED....

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

LMHF - I don't know much about dyslexia so allow me a dumb question . .

Would spelling words phonetically actually help out a lot or is that a bit of a red herring?

e2a - ignore me - have caught up on whole thread now.

e3a - and ignore Gmarthews too - I don't think he's deliberately trying to be offensive but I think the charm school owes him a refund

ARf, couldnt agree more

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

.

Look forward! Do you feel that the current regime is adequately addressing the dyslexia problem? What did you think of the need to keep children in the same school so that they could be with their friends which you didn't comment earlier? Would you prefer to isolate the children even more than they no doubt feel already with their condition?

I think thats a very patronising view of 'the current regime' and this idea that children need to 'stay with their freiends' helps prevent their isolation..
again, go away and research dyslexia, talk to some people about the misery their children have endured sitting in a classroom with children who can easily do what is being asked, enduring teaching which doesnt meet their needs and doesnt understand what it is that is needed in order to address their problems.Inclison margianlises and isolates children more than any special school or unit ever would IMO ( and I have the living proof in my daughter who now has friends,isnt humilliated when she fails and doesnt constantly compare herself unfavourably to every other child)
I think 'the current regime' ( ie the teaching of children with all special needs in mainstream schools) is sucessful for only a minority of children, in relation to dyslexics specifically those children are those with the mildest problems.
I truly believe that proper multisensory teaching in either dedicated schools or units attached to schools ( where children would spend most of their lessons, bar things like art, IT or music, PE etc) would address the needs of children with severe dyslexia who without intensive specialist help will fall behind mroe and more with no hope of catching up.

So you go off and have a chat with some parents, teachers and dyslexia professionals, read up on dyslexia come back and we'll have a chat about the misery and abuse that is the inclusion system, the denial of needs and funding and the resistance to special schools or dedicated units for children with special needs which is almost entirely financially driven.

 

[scifisam]

Gmarthews, instead of just telling people to have 'vision,' and implying that anyone who doesn't share your particular viewpoint lacks vision and doesn't care about dyslexics, why don't you make an argument for phonemic spelling?

How will it help dyslexics?

How will it help other people?

If there's complete free reign in spelling, so that people spell how they individually spell the word, how will you teach people to read?

How would you overcome the problems that no-one would be able to read anything written pre-phonemics?

How would you cope with the problem that no-one would be able to read English written by people outide the UK?

How would you persuade people to use it, since, if they don't use it, it won't exist as a real written language?


There are plenty more questions possible, but you answering the first two questions would be a start.

 

[Nemo]

Because WE (ie NOT the Greeks) don't say it like that!

How do you say 'aesthetic' then?

 

[Orang Utan]

Yes, how do you spell th phonetically? Or the si in television?
Or the cul if ridiculous?

 

[Gmart]

How do you say 'aesthetic' then?

Without an 'h' for a start!

 

[Gmart]

I think thats a very patronising view of 'the current regime' and this idea that children need to 'stay with their freiends' helps prevent their isolation..

Well I am keen to prevent their isolation, so I suppose I will stick with doing that. Are you keen to promote their isolation?

Like I said I'm not sure about the need for special schools etc, so I'll leave that for others, but I DO remember being VERY unhappy at leaving my friends when I changed schools and so I am reluctant to dismiss it quite so heartlessly.

As Science and Orange have pointed out, there are several areas which would need to be decided. Such as the 2 pronunciations of 'th'.

Good points one and all. I would suggest little steps where needed. There are much more basic problems which cause confusion to our children. And remember this is for them first and foremost. Existing books would be reprinted in time, just like dictionaries are now. In fact read the original link for what happened in Germany! All those problems and more I'm sure, but every step would be a step in the right direction. Many answer the questions I've been asked here, leading me to suspect that you lot ain't done yr homework

And remember there were millennia when we didn't have dictionaries at all. If you read Samuel Pepys (for example) he spells 'cousin' as 'cuzen', and I'm with him there!

 

[Nemo]

Without an 'h' for a start!

'Aestetic?' Sounds like a stomach complaint to me.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Well I am keen to prevent their isolation, so I suppose I will stick with doing that. Are you keen to promote their isolation?

Like I said I'm not sure about the need for special schools etc, so I'll leave that for others, but I DO remember being VERY unhappy at leaving my friends when I changed schools and so I am reluctant to dismiss it quite so heartlessly.

As Science and Orange have pointed out, there are several areas which would need to be decided. Such as the 2 pronunciations of 'th'.

!

You take for granted that since you were unhappy at having to change schools then all children will feel this way.
If a child is coping( and therefore happy) in school then its likely they wouldnt need mucch specialist teaching in order to suceed.. those arent the children Im advocating should be taught in specialist schools or units ( as I think Ive already explained and youve ignored)
But for those who are failing in mainstream schools, falling further and further behind and having their self esteem damaged, their educational chances denied and quite possibly being labelled and bullied then surely they deserve the same chance at an education that someone without problems deserved?
You believe that specialist schoolsor units = isolation. I know from personal experience and the experience of my children and friends children that quite the opposite is true. There is nothing more alienating than sitting in a clasroom, being given work you cannot possibly do, that you cannot read well enough to understand nor write well enough to produce answers. All while watching the children on the other desks bevering away.

Watching them being praised and knowing that you are just as bright as your classmates( usually brighter than many) and yet you dont have a hope in hell of being able to do what they can, even if you sat there all day.

Many severe dyslexic children experience this reality day in day out, are removed from classes they excell at in order to do more reading. For the most severe this is also a chore since the staff teaching are often no more than dinner ladies roped in to help who havent got a hope in hell of actually addressing a childs problems... its so that the LEA can be seen to be doing something.

If you think removing a miserable child from a situation which is damaging them and where they arent being educated is isolating them so be it but the reality is that its often the first place ever in their school careers theyve been understood, have friends who understand and suddenly they are being taught in a way they can understand, rather than alwayws being expected to cope

My daughter who has a huge IQ was offered a place in a special needs class with children who have a low IQ.. why? because we were told she couldnt cope in a mainstream senior school class setting because she was basically unteachable with the rest and should instead concentrate on 'skills for life' ( basically a bit of baisc maths, english, lots of school trips, shopping and cookery etc)
Shes been in a specielist school for a year and is expected to sit her IT GCSE a year early. shes happy, has friends, isa beautiful young lady instead of a wreck who used to plead and beg not to go to school every day
Im sure you'd have argued we were isolating her (from her tormentors and bullies- Id agree?) If kids arent coping they should be given a good quality educational setting where they can thrive.. Its their right

 

[scifisam]

You take for granted that since you were unhappy at having to change schools then all children will feel this way.
If a child is coping( and therefore happy) in school then its likely they wouldnt need mucch specialist teaching in order to suceed.. those arent the children Im advocating should be taught in specialist schools or units ( as I think Ive already explained and youve ignored)
But for those who are failing in mainstream schools, falling further and further behind and having their self esteem damaged, their educational chances denied and quite possibly being labelled and bullied then surely they deserve the same chance at an education that someone without problems deserved?
You believe that specialist schoolsor units = isolation. I know from personal experience and the experience of my children and friends children that quite the opposite is true. There is nothing more alienating than sitting in a clasroom, being given work you cannot possibly do, that you cannot read well enough to understand nor write well enough to produce answers. All while watching the children on the other desks bevering away.

Watching them being praised and knowing that you are just as bright as your classmates( usually brighter than many) and yet you dont have a hope in hell of being able to do what they can, even if you sat there all day.

Many severe dyslexic children experience this reality day in day out, are removed from classes they excell at in order to do more reading. For the most severe this is also a chore since the staff teaching are often no more than dinner ladies roped in to help who havent got a hope in hell of actually addressing a childs problems... its so that the LEA can be seen to be doing something.

If you think removing a miserable child from a situation which is damaging them and where they arent being educated is isolating them so be it but the reality is that its often the first place ever in their school careers theyve been understood, have friends who understand and suddenly they are being taught in a way they can understand, rather than alwayws being expected to cope

My daughter who has a huge IQ was offered a place in a special needs class with children who have a low IQ.. why? because we were told she couldnt cope in a mainstream senior school class setting because she was basically unteachable with the rest she was s and should instead concentrate on 'skills for life'
Shes been in a specielist school for a year and is expected to sit her IT GCSE a year early. shes happy, has friends, isa beautiful young lady instead of a wreck who used to plead and beg not to go to school every day

I agree with all that. Sending every kid with a 'special need' to a 'special school,' like it seems they used to, is bad. Keeping every kid in mainstream schools doesn't always work either, though. There is a halfway house, and it should be based on the choice of the particular parents and child alongside educational needs.

That requires a separate thread, really, but I know that I don't have the time or energy for one.

 

[maomao]

Yes, how do you spell th phonetically?

Would be θ in phonemic script (greek theta). The th in the is different though. That would have to be ð. I dunno what that's called. I think if we did it properly in english we'd be better off using th and dh than having extra letters.

Or the si in television?

Is ʒ but zh would be easier.

Or the cul if ridiculous?

Kyel (or kyəl if you want to be fancy).

 

[Orang Utan]

I can see that as being immensely helpful to dyslexics!

 

[maomao]

Innit.

 

[maomao]

The real reason it hasn't happened, or some sort of simpler spelling reform to sort out the roughs and the hiccoughs, is that the Americans and British would never agree on it. If the Brits did it unilaterally we'd just look stupid, we might as well declare esperanto as our national language. And if the Yanks did it we'd never stand for it, we get angry enough when people spell colour as color. Imagine if they spelled it kuller or kʌlər.

 

[Orang Utan]

To be fair, I don't think the OP can mean the phonemic alphabet when he says phonetic spelling. He just means spelling words how they sound. But of course, we all pronounce things differently

 

[clandestino]

we all pronounce things differently

Exactly. The idea's nonsense.

Take the word suede for example. My girlfriend, who is Scottish, pronounces it: swed. I, being English, pronounce it, swayed.

Which do you choose? Who are you to say which is the "correct" pronunciation? Or do we have both?