Help children and dyslexics, make English more phonetic in its spelling,

[Orang Utan]

I don't want to read and write a strictly utilitarian language - I want superfluous colour and ornamentation. I don't want to live in the boring grey world that you aspire to, thanks. Aesthetics is not phonetically spelt but it is a rich beautiful word - you can see our language's history in words like this.

 

[Gmart]

I don't see why you feel that speech would suddenly become boring and grey. The way it is written has no effect on what I say, and I suspect that would go for everyone.

Are you sure that you aren't letting your own fear of change influence your opinion?

There is no reason to feel that English would suddenly become less flowery. And I'm sure the many languages around the world which are phonetic would also disagree with you!

 

[Orang Utan]

I didn't say speech. I was talking about the written word

 

[Gmart]

I didn't say speech. I was talking about the written word

How about an example of what you think might only happen to written English?

 

[5t3IIa]

Why? When these aesthetics are preventing children and dyslexics from reading and writing?
'Aesthetics' another good example of a word spelt ridiculously!

The reason might be perfectly valid for you (lucky you!), but children with reading and writing difficulties are more important than your aesthetic judgment.

Having regional differences wouldn't be a problem either. The vast majority of words would have the phonetic spelling, and we already manage to deal with regional differences. Imagine 'colour' and 'color', doesn't really cause any problems really!

Your premise is flawed: children don't have much problem learning to read - dyslexics have problems.

 

[Orang Utan]

How about an example of what you think might only happen to written English?

Imagine Shakespeare or Larkin or Dickens or McEwan written phonetically

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

We would be making it easier for them, because they would always be able to sound out words, and would have a simple phonetic system rather than the confusing, conflicting, inconsistent system we now have!

This is a matter of having vision! We could help so many children.

We could make reading and writing problems vastly less, and help many other conditions at the same time!

Once you learn the different sounds you can read. So the sound 's' would always be represented by the letter 's'. So imagine 'ceiling' would become 'seeling'.

erm it's not an issue of needing to sound out spellings it's an issue of physicall recognition. normal words look like this on a page for me...

changing the spelling isn't going to help and for example in my image above i can recognise the shape of the word but can't read it... change the spelling and you fuck my coping mechanism and prolly alot of others...

 

[Fuchs66]

Yes Germany did introduce phonetic spelling for kids in the first couple of years of primary school (in some states) and IMO it's a bad idea my kids were taught using this system and I cant see any advantage if anything it hindered them learning the written language as they had to basically learn it twice once with the "easy" spelling form and then once more with the correct spelling. Also leads to difficulties with parents helping kids learn as they dont have experience of this system and what the kids learn at home is often marked down at school and this can (and did in my case) lead to stress between teachers and parents. Please dont get me started on the teaching of English here I'll go off on one.

 

[scifisam]

OK, if we say that English being phonetic would help a large number of children, including the dyslexics, with their reading and writing.

That's a HUGE 'if.' Garfield's just given a good example of why - and others have given other reasons why.

Can anyone here think of a reason why we shouldn't introduce phonetic spelling gradually thru the school system in the same way the Germans have?

IF phonetic spelling really were the solution to dyslexia, then there still would be a lot of arguments again a phonetic system - I gace some of them in an earlier post in this thread. I wouldn't be against a German-style change in principle, though, because the changes were so small and cosmetic, but it would be rather a waste of money and resources to make such small changes.

 

[danny la rouge]

Bad idea imo. Languages evolve; they shouldn't be laid down by diktat.

This is correct.

(That doesnt mean I think "anything goes", btw. I'm quite keen on conventions that help to avoid ambiguity, for example).

 

[danny la rouge]

How about an example of what you think might only happen to written English?

As things stand, you often get phonetic keys at the beginning of dictionaries etc. But they apply to an accent that isn't mine. Quite often two examples are given of a vowel sound, but in my accent the vowel sound isn't the same for both words. "Bird" and "work", for example. In some accents, those both have a vowel sound like the vowel in the French for egg: oeuf. In my accent, they don't, and what's more the R is pronounced. (I'm Scots).

My partner is from Staffordshire. She rhymes Blood with Good. I don't.

There are loads of similar examples. There's no way you could phonetically represent English neutrally, because it isn't spoken in a standard way.

You could go for the Chinese system, which is to represent meaning but not sound. But that'd be a bit of an upheaval.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

You could go for the Chinese system, which is to represent meaning but not sound. But that'd be a bit of an upheaval.

and in effect blinding to most dyslexics...

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't want to read and write a strictly utilitarian language - I want superfluous colour and ornamentation. I don't want to live in the boring grey world that you aspire to, thanks. Aesthetics is not phonetically spelt but it is a rich beautiful word - you can see our language's history in words like this.

If we wanted a utilitarian language, we'd all be speaking Esperanto by now.

 

[Gmart]

OK, so despite the probability that it would help the poorest parts of society, most here seem against even trying with this.

Would you also be against a trial period when both spellings would be allowed? Thus in time the population have the freedom to go towards whichever system they prefer?

 

[Orang Utan]

Are you on drugs?

 

[Fuchs66]

OK, so despite the probability that it would help the poorest parts of society, most here seem against even trying with this.

How would this help the poorest parts of society, it didn't help my kids and I wasn't exactly rolling in it.

Would you also be against a trial period when both spellings would be allowed? Thus in time the population have the freedom to go towards whichever system they prefer?

Bad bad bad idea, one or the other and to be honest after my experiences of phonetic spelling I know which I prefer.

 

[Crispy]

I think phonetic spelling is a great idea.

PS: who decided on what letters stood for what sounds in welsh. They're fucked up!

 

[Orang Utan]

And why do you think it's a great idea?

 

[Gmart]

There are countries with phonetic systems you know.

It is difficult to be visionary, but please try!

this system could HELP.

You are like the aristocracy who complained about Korea doing the same thing. Saying that the poor shouldn't learn to read, and the more difficult the better!

I am truly surprised at the attacks. I am NOT on drugs, I am considering change.

Change need not be scary, and if it doesn't work then people wouldn't use it. I am not proposing imposition, I am just proposing the freedom to spell each word as it is spoken.

I have more faith in our society then many here I think...

 

[danny la rouge]

PS: who decided on what letters stood for what sounds in welsh. They're fucked up!

Letters are in any case arbitrary; there's no connection bewteeen a sound and a letter. The sound we write as "oo" could just as easily be represented by the symbol "z", or even "¬".

I'm no Welsh expert, but in Gaelic the rules are much clearer than in English: "Mh" is pronounced "v". That's not what an English speaker might expect, but that's the rule. Aspirated "m". End of. And there's none of this "except after C" carry on.

In English, "fish" could be spelled "ghoti". You don't get that nonsense in Gaelic.

 

[Crispy]

And why do you think it's a great idea?

It would make spelling easier, and more consistent. Just by knowing the sound of a word, you would know the spelling. For instance, there is no need for K, c and s, when just K and S will do. X is superfluous too. I haven't worked it out but I reckon you could get the alfabet down beloh twentee letters if yoo tride.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

OK, so despite the probability that it would help the poorest parts of society, most here seem against even trying with this.

as someone with a profound disablity and having had many a conversation with out people with similar disabilites can i just state publicly now and hope that the meaning isn't too obscure however, we collectively do not need patronising mother knows best attitudes nor condesention when being delt with. Ever. thanks all the same. It tends to turn us of by the truck load being told what is best for us.

I assume you are describign people with disabilties as the poorest parts of society like being normal is such an enriching experince. or that you have had some comparitor with which you could create a meaningful scale. ifhow ever you are talking bout financail poverty then the attitude is even worse if you are implying that those who are in financial hardship at natrually drawn towards illitercy or beign incapable by virtue of their lack of means to of learning.

Eitherway it's a hideiously navie sentiment at best and a down right diabolical concept at worst. any way you cut it...

Would you also be against a trial period when both spellings would be allowed? Thus in time the population have the freedom to go towards whichever system they prefer?

utterly there is no need to manifest further confusion in what is already a bloody mindfield in order that you can push some half arse ill thought out agenda.

 

[goldenecitrone]

There are more than 40 symbols in the phonetic alphabet. You'd have to change a lot of keyboards.

 

[Nemo]

OK, so despite the probability that it would help the poorest parts of society, most here seem against even trying with this.

You have yet to produce any evidence for anything approaching such a sweeping claim. And in the meantime you would cause massive problems to everyone who can already read English (which around the world numbers in the billions).

Oh, and the reason 'aesthetics' is spelt the way it is is because it is a direct transliteration from Greek.

 

[Gmart]

You have yet to produce any evidence for anything approaching such a sweeping claim. And in the meantime you would cause massive problems to everyone who can already read English (which around the world numbers in the billions).

Oh, and the reason 'aesthetics' is spelt the way it is is because it is a direct transliteration from Greek.

Exactly! What a stupid reason!!

What evidence would convince you?

 

[Orang Utan]

It would make spelling easier, and more consistent. Just by knowing the sound of a word, you would know the spelling. For instance, there is no need for K, c and s, when just K and S will do. X is superfluous too. I haven't worked it out but I reckon you could get the alfabet down beloh twentee letters if yoo tride.

See, you've just proved my point about aesthetics. That last bit is so ugly. I don't want simplicity if that's what it looks like.

 

[Gmart]

See, you've just proved my point about aesthetics. That last bit is so ugly. I don't want simplicity if that's what it looks like.

It's only ugly because it is unfamiliar!

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

OK, so despite the probability that it would help the poorest parts of society, most here seem against even trying with this.

Would you also be against a trial period when both spellings would be allowed? Thus in time the population have the freedom to go towards whichever system they prefer?

I find the insiunuation that I and my children and all other dyslexics I know 'the poorest parts of society' highly insulting.

I know many dyslexics who have managed to get to university, have had to work harder than everyone else to get there, have to work longer and harder than most other students once they are there and still come out with fantastic degrees and have good jobs.
Indeed some of the richest people( in terms of wealth) in the UK are Dyslexic

 

[Gmart]

I know that LMHF. FFS I am simply stating that literacy and poverty are often linked. Do you want stats with that?

Is it possible that you could NOT jump up and down saying how insulted you are at the drop of a hat? I can see you enjoy doing it, but it just doesn't help!

In case you hadn't noticed I was trying to explore the issues surrounding Dyslexia and seeing if there are some solutions which might help...

Anyone would think you are anti-dyslexic the way you seem more keen on taking offense than actually exploring the issue with a view to solution.

I am well aware that some dyslexics have succeeded. So have other handicapped people, but that would not stop me from trying to cure their handicap!

 

[Orang Utan]

It's a sad sign of the times when people begin to value uniformity over idiosyncrasy, for the sake of some ideal