Heinieken Cup 2008/2009

[1927]

1927 - You mind me asking why you support the Ospreys over the Blues? I can hardly consider myself a partisan fan of the Blues, and can see that what's best for the Ospreys is best for Wales, but in a game between the two I'd support the Blues.

I could no sooner support the Blues than I could England, and I was born in England!!!

As a kid I was brought up on Swansea RFC, my old man is from Mumbles, and that's that!

I miss the old days tho, no leagues, every game a friendly and you still got 12000 on a wednesday evening to see a game against Moseley, and if you wanted to watch the Llanelli game you had to get ya tickets at the first game of the season. Remember watching the All Blacks beat us 32-0 sat on the roof of the snack shack on the bank as there was nowhere else. And the date 4-11-92 will be forever emblazoned across my heart!!

 

[Threshers_Flail]

Fuck I missed it!

Was hoping to mark the occasion by sacrificing my cat or something.

 

[Threshers_Flail]

I could no sooner support the Blues than I could England, and I was born in England!!!

As a kid I was brought up on Swansea RFC, my old man is from Mumbles, and that's that!

I miss the old days tho, no leagues, every game a friendly and you still got 12000 on a wednesday evening to see a game against Moseley, and if you wanted to watch the Llanelli game you had to get ya tickets at the first game of the season. Remember watching the All Blacks beat us 32-0 sat on the roof of the snack shack on the bank as there was nowhere else. And the date 4-11-92 will be forever emblazoned across my heart!!

Nice trip down memory lane. Shame I'm too young to know of anything but the supposed Professional era. Nice to see your not dragged into the Cardiff v Swansea bullshit, It's too ingrained in me.

 

[1927]

Nice trip down memory lane. Shame I'm too young to know of anything but the supposed Professional era. Nice to see your not dragged into the Cardiff v Swansea bullshit, It's too ingrained in me.

Lived all my life in Barry, Swansea rugby man and Cardiff footy, and never the other way round. At one pointabout ten years ago was a City st holder and Swansea rugby st holder. When bothwere home I would often watch city at ninian Park and then jump in the car and belt down to St.Helens to catch a 5.45 kick off!

 

[bendeus]

Lived all my life in Barry, Swansea rugby man and Cardiff footy, and never the other way round. At one pointabout ten years ago was a City st holder and Swansea rugby st holder. When bothwere home I would often watch city at ninian Park and then jump in the car and belt down to St.Helens to catch a 5.45 kick off!

Similar to me - Llantwit Major boy, CCFC football but Ospreys rygbi. Bit of a black sheep because all my family were/are firmly CRFC.

Can't get down with any of the rivalries, though, as evidenced by my screaming my heart out for the Blues on Sunday. Basically want the best for Welsh rugby, which means all the regions doing well.

 

[mattie]

Similar to me - Llantwit Major boy, CCFC football but Ospreys rygbi. Bit of a black sheep because all my family were/are firmly CRFC.

Can't get down with any of the rivalries, though, as evidenced by my screaming my heart out for the Blues on Sunday. Basically want the best for Welsh rugby, which means all the regions doing well.

I'm amazed there's no Leicester equivalent in Wales - the team everyone hates.

Were there any such teams pre-regionalisation (if that's even a word)?

 

[Threshers_Flail]

Can't get down with any of the rivalries, though, as evidenced by my screaming my heart out for the Blues on Sunday. Basically want the best for Welsh rugby, which means all the regions doing well.

Same here. I enjoy watching the Ospreys more, but would support Cardiff Blues purely on the meager basis that its my home town.

 

[1927]

I'm amazed there's no Leicester equivalent in Wales - the team everyone hates.

Were there any such teams pre-regionalisation (if that's even a word)?

Blues is the closest you'll get really. Their support is limited to Cardiff really. as opposeto the Os who have a fan base that stretches across South wales and you are as likley to see a kid in Newport or Merthyr wearing an O shirt as a kid in Swanse or Neath, Ospralia they call it!

Thing with Cardiff Blues is that they refuse to drop the Cardiff bit, citing history etc, which has well and truly piseed off the support they could have drawn on from Bridgend and Pontypridd when their franchise closed down. Many of the fans in these area have turned to rugby league hence the awarding of a franchise for Super League from next season!

Interesting point: regional rugby was set up in 2003, but buy a Cardiff Blues programme and it will tell you they were established in 1876!!!

 

[bendeus]

I'm amazed there's no Leicester equivalent in Wales - the team everyone hates.

Were there any such teams pre-regionalisation (if that's even a word)?

Yeah. Cardiff RFC. The rich, capitaly city club, viewed as being aloof, stuck up and more middle class than the rest. Probably one of the biggest and most successful rugby sides in the world back in the amateur days, who then became the big spenders in the early days of professionalism with a tendency to snap up other clubs' best players. Lot of hostility towards them.

The Neath in the Neath Swansea Ospreys were always a team that people loved to hate as well.

Oh, and it's absolutely a word.

 

[bendeus]

Many of the fans in these area have turned to rugby league hence the awarding of a franchise for Super League from next season!

Most of them still support Ponty in the Welsh Prem, though.

E2A: I think Peter Thomas is hoping that by taking the side away from the CAP and into Leckwith, and by emphasising the Blues rather than Cardiff, they will start to lure back the stayaway fans from the Valleys and start building a support base as a real region rather than a standalone club masquerading as a region.

I for one think that is foolish, and that the groundshare with CCFC will be one of the most financially suicidal moves that the Blues could ever have dreamed up. Bloody idiots, if you ask me.

 

[Threshers_Flail]

Thing with Cardiff Blues is that they refuse to drop the Cardiff bit, citing history etc, which has well and truly piseed off the support they could have drawn on from Bridgend and Pontypridd when their franchise closed down. Many of the fans in these area have turned to rugby league hence the awarding of a franchise for Super League from next season!

That does piss me off, just their arrogance, their lack of respect for Welsh Rugby. The Valleys is more deserving of a Regional side than Cardiff. And that Arms Park is full of grumpy old men, tossers the lot of them.

 

[1927]

Yeah. Cardiff RFC. The rich, capitaly city club, viewed as being aloof, stuck up and more middle class than the rest. Probably one of the biggest and most successful rugby sides in the world back in the amateur days, who then became the big spenders in the early days of professionalism with a tendency to snap up other clubs' best players. Lot of hostility towards them.

The Neath in the Neath Swansea Ospreys were always a team that people loved to hate as well.

Oh, and it's absolutely a word.

Were they tho? They were a big club yes, they beat the All Blacks, yes, but they never dominated the domestic scene like Llanelli did, if anything when I was a kid they were the perennial underachievers, but the mystique of the big city club went before them.When the leagues came alonmg they didnt own it like Man U in the PL. Cardiff were already paying their players a long time bafore professionalism.

Incidentally, Swansea were the only Welsh club side to beat all the major touring sides. Swansea won the Welsh premier more times than any other club. When regions were set up, Swansea were tossed aside, having come back into the Welsh rugby fold after the breakaway season, when them and Cardiff could have gone it alone and joined the Englsih system, but no, we came nack after promises from the WRU, adn git royally fucked over. But Cardiff and Llanelli were allowed to remain as stand alone club/regions. There was never any demand to drop the town names in there titles to give a semblance of regional identity, why not. Grrrr, i fucking hate the WRU me!

 

[Threshers_Flail]

Grrrr, i fucking hate the WRU me!

They do seem intent on keeping the game in Wales in the Dark Ages. The whole set up for regional rugby was fucked from the beginning.

 

[bendeus]

That does piss me off, just their arrogance, their lack of respect for Welsh Rugby. The Valleys is more deserving of a Regional side than Cardiff. And that Arms Park is full of grumpy old men, tossers the lot of them.

There ya go, Mattie

 

[bendeus]

Cardiff and Llanelli were allowed to remain as stand alone club/regions. There was never any demand to drop the town names in there titles to give a semblance of regional identity, why not. Grrrr, i fucking hate the WRU me!

But look where it's got them. The Scarlets are leveraged up to the hilt, haemorrhaging support, playing in their brand new stadium with a shit team in front of crowds of 7,500, 'gnawing on the bones of an old song' as, RS Thomas would have put it.

The Blues are about to sell their souls and their most prized asset - one of the most iconic and brilliantly placed stadia in club rugby to pay hundreds of thousands of pounds to play 18 games a year in somebody else's stadium. Hundreds if not thousands of their most staunch supporters are so disgusted by this that they will never set foot in Leckwith. They are making a massive gamble in the hope that they will attract new support and, more importantly, fill the corporate hospitality suites week in, week out. This is by no means assured, especially in the current climate.

It is possible that within 10 years both clubs will have ceased to exist. Don't you think that the Os, with their incredibly slick merchandising skills (some of the highest shirt sales of any side in Europe) and their 30% holding in the stadium the play in, which guarantees them income streams 365 days a years, will ensure their sustainability well into the future.

I really, really wouldn't feel jealous of the standalones. Not one bit.

 

[bendeus]

They do seem intent on keeping the game in Wales in the Dark Ages. The whole set up for regional rugby was fucked from the beginning.

But what was our alternative? Watching Ebbw Vale play Pontypridd in a league that had lost any meaning and had no hope of TV revenue? Seeing our sides spanked in Europe and in any meaningful cross-border competition? Seeing the entire Welsh rugby structure incapable of delivering the players and systems required for national success? Watching the best Welsh players being poached by English or French sides?

The regions were a fudge, of that there was no doubt, but they're here to stay and we need to learn to live with them. This time next week we could well have two sides through to the last 8 of the HEC, we have two sides through to the semis of the EDF and we're European champions, having achieved two grand slams in the last four years. I'll take that

 

[ch750536]

Most potential in a player this year - Paul Warwick, has been outstanding. Any Irish heritage I wonder.

 

[bendeus]

Can he qualify on residency? Would he want to?

 

[Threshers_Flail]

But what was our alternative? Watching Ebbw Vale play Pontypridd in a league that had lost any meaning and had no hope of TV revenue? Seeing our sides spanked in Europe and in any meaningful cross-border competition? Seeing the entire Welsh rugby structure incapable of delivering the players and systems required for national success? Watching the best Welsh players being poached by English or French sides?

The regions were a fudge, of that there was no doubt, but they're here to stay and we need to learn to live with them. This time next week we could well have two sides through to the last 8 of the HEC, we have two sides through to the semis of the EDF and we're European champions, having achieved two grand slams in the last four years. I'll take that

I agree that it had to happen, just the manner in which it did gets me. How can the South Wales valleys not be represented? Its just ridiculous. Instead of four regions we got four super clubs, (well two now), it was the right decision, just a rushed one. The WRU made too many concessions to the clubs. Like the Newport/Gwent Dragons, bloody stupid.

 

[bendeus]

I agree that it had to happen, just the manner in which it did gets me. How can the South Wales valleys not be represented? Its just ridiculous. Instead of four regions we got four super clubs, (well two now), it was the right decision, just a rushed one. The WRU made too many concessions to the clubs. Like the Newport/Gwent Dragons, bloody stupid.

Agreed. It was a fudge. But how would you have done it differently? How could the Cardiff valleys not have been absorbed into the (much bigger) Cardiff rugby setup? Even if they'd dropped the word 'Cardiff' from the new club's title, and if they'd not played in Blue, it's ridiculous to think that that team would not play out of the national capital. Remember that the Warriors, for all the howling and gnashing of teeth that came from the Valleys and Bridgend when Leighton Samuels withdrew his cash, died because no fucker went and watched them. Gates were low, Bridgend didn't want to go to Ponty and vice versa, and the 'region' was unable to sustain a first class rugby side on professional wages.

Ditto the NGD. What other option was there than to absorb Ebbw Vale, Pontypool, etc. into Newport? That's where the population centre was, that's where the transport hubs are.

To me, the failure of some of the regions is more down to typical Welsh villageism and parochialism rather than the innate non-viability of those enterprises. You know the kind of thing:

"I'm nor goen down to fuckin' Newport to watch those fuckers, I'm from Ebbw Vale, butt"

Maybe the radical solution would have been to divide Wales, genuinely geographically, into four. West, Central, East and North. The former being a merger between Llanelli, Neath and Swansea, the second between Bridgend, Cardiff and Ponty and the third between Ebbw Vale, Pontypool and Newport, with a fourth, development region (a la Connacht) being established on WRU life support funds for the first five years in, say, Wrexham. That way you wouldn't have had half of the country disenfranchised and you'd have had three more, viable and distinct genuine regions that aren't seen as being tied specifically to old, standalone clubs.

Maybe..........

 

[Threshers_Flail]

To me, the failure of some of the regions is more down to typical Welsh villageism and parochialism rather than the innate non-viability of those enterprises. You know the kind of thing:

"I'm nor goen down to fuckin' Newport to watch those fuckers, I'm from Ebbw Vale, butt":

Have had at first hand seen this, bloody frustrating. With the Blues, if they ditch the Cardiff bit, and make an attempt to draw numbers from the Valleys, there should really be no excuse for them not to attract support. A significant number of Valley boys make it down to Ninian Park for the football, why not rugby?

I think were derailing the thread a bit but hey. Welsh Rugby is pretty nuts.

I for one think that is foolish, and that the groundshare with CCFC will be one of the most financially suicidal moves that the Blues could ever have dreamed up. Bloody idiots, if you ask me.

Why? I haven't really come across this argument before.

 

[bendeus]

Why? I haven't really come across this argument before.

A few reasons:

- CAP is one of the most iconic stadia in club rugby. How many others can boast a city centre location surrounded by pubs and five minutes from the nearest transport hub?
- Structurally it's good for another 12 years without any major works needing to be done.
- Its 13,000 capacity is good for all but a few matches it would play over the course of a season
- Contrary to popular rumour, it is possible to redevelop the stadium to a larger capacity and retain ownership
- CRFC have an agreement with the Millenium Stadium for four matches to be played there per year. Sufficient, you would have thought, for all of their marquee matches.
- CRFC currently make revenue from the car park, the on-site clubhouse and bar and the ground's conference facilities. This equates to about £700,000 per year, with a ground rent of £100,000. Compare this to the almost £500,000 they will be paying CCFC for the rental of Leckwith for 18 matches per year (many of which will see around 7,000 people showing up in a 23,000 capacity stadium. CRFC will not be able to earn any non-matchday revenue from Leckwith. Furthermore, the rugby club are locked into this deal contractually for five years, regardless of gates and income. If their business models are wrong, they will still have to cough up the half a million a year.
- CCFC will be the sole owners of Leckwith, and hence will have full control over branding, advertising and marketing.
- CRFC will be forced to split, with the Region going to Leckwith and the Welsh Prem side continuing at CAP, at least until it's sold off
- CCFC, as landlords, are able to terminate the contract after five years which, if CAP is sold off, would leave the capital's rugby team homeless. This is far more likely, apparently, if CCFC get to the prem (which is another reason I'd be happy to see them stay in the championship) due to certain premiership requirements applying.
- Bristol, the current GP strugglers, are currently on the edge of financial meltdown and administration. One of the most resounding reasons cited for their difficulties is the fact that they do not own their own ground, and instead rent from Bristol City (?). Given that gates and TV revenues are lower in the Magners than the GP, why on earth would another club want to adopt that business model?

It all stinks to high heaven. Looks to me like Peter Thomas, alongside his buddy Paul Guy, have their beady eyes on the prime real estate that is CAP. Rumour has it that it would be redeveloped into a hotel and media suite, which would be attached to the Millenium Stadium. This in turn would allow the city to attract events such as the Champions League and UEFA cup finals (apparently a media centre and accommodation are key stipulations for hosting such events), which is why in turn the City Council are tacitly supporting the move as it would bring revenue into the city centre, (and doubtless some tasty kickbacks if it ever occurred). Even though the land was gifted by the Marquis of Bute, and has a covenant limiting it to recreational purposes, I can't imagine that stopping such voracious capitalists in their eternal quest for cash and 'progress'.

So, in summary, CRFC have nothing to gain, and masses to lose, up to and including their own existence as a top level rugby side.

Further information here, should you be interested:

http://www.calltoarms.org.uk/news/20070924_2.php

 

[Threshers_Flail]

A few reasons:

- CAP is one of the most iconic stadia in club rugby. How many others can boast a city centre location surrounded by pubs and five minutes from the nearest transport hub?
- Structurally it's good for another 12 years without any major works needing to be done.
- Its 13,000 capacity is good for all but a few matches it would play over the course of a season
- Contrary to popular rumour, it is possible to redevelop the stadium to a larger capacity and retain ownership
- CRFC have an agreement with the Millenium Stadium for four matches to be played there per year. Sufficient, you would have thought, for all of their marquee matches.
- CRFC currently make revenue from the car park, the on-site clubhouse and bar and the ground's conference facilities. This equates to about £700,000 per year, with a ground rent of £100,000. Compare this to the almost £500,000 they will be paying CCFC for the rental of Leckwith for 18 matches per year (many of which will see around 7,000 people showing up in a 23,000 capacity stadium. CRFC will not be able to earn any non-matchday revenue from Leckwith. Furthermore, the rugby club are locked into this deal contractually for five years, regardless of gates and income. If their business models are wrong, they will still have to cough up the half a million a year.
- CCFC will be the sole owners of Leckwith, and hence will have full control over branding, advertising and marketing.
- CRFC will be forced to split, with the Region going to Leckwith and the Welsh Prem side continuing at CAP, at least until it's sold off
- CCFC, as landlords, are able to terminate the contract after five years which, if CAP is sold off, would leave the capital's rugby team homeless. This is far more likely, apparently, if CCFC get to the prem (which is another reason I'd be happy to see them stay in the championship) due to certain premiership requirements applying.
- Bristol, the current GP strugglers, are currently on the edge of financial meltdown and administration. One of the most resounding reasons cited for their difficulties is the fact that they do not own their own ground, and instead rent from Bristol City (?). Given that gates and TV revenues are lower in the Magners than the GP, why on earth would another club want to adopt that business model?

It all stinks to high heaven. Looks to me like Peter Thomas, alongside his buddy Paul Guy, have their beady eyes on the prime real estate that is CAP. Rumour has it that it would be redeveloped into a hotel and media suite, which would be attached to the Millenium Stadium. This in turn would allow the city to attract events such as the Champions League and UEFA cup finals (apparently a media centre and accommodation are key stipulations for hosting such events), which is why in turn the City Council are tacitly supporting the move as it would bring revenue into the city centre, (and doubtless some tasty kickbacks if it ever occurred). Even though the land was gifted by the Marquis of Bute, and has a covenant limiting it to recreational purposes, I can't imagine that stopping such voracious capitalists in their eternal quest for cash and 'progress'.

So, in summary, CRFC have nothing to gain, and masses to lose, up to and including their own existence as a top level rugby side.

Further information here, should you be interested:

http://www.calltoarms.org.uk/news/20070924_2.php

Bloody hell. I don't see why there isn't a campaign from the Blues fans though . Even if the move meant nothing more than a change of scenery, you would still suspect there to be people unhappy enough about leaving to do something about it, just for the history of the Arms Park, nevermind the financial costs. Can easily see the Paul Guy/Peter Thomas carve up having the backing of the council, the city would make millions from hosting major finals. Your right it does stink.

 

[1927]

A few reasons:

- CAP is one of the most iconic stadia in club rugby. How many others can boast a city centre location surrounded by pubs and five minutes from the nearest transport hub?
- Structurally it's good for another 12 years without any major works needing to be done.
- Its 13,000 capacity is good for all but a few matches it would play over the course of a season
- Contrary to popular rumour, it is possible to redevelop the stadium to a larger capacity and retain ownership
- CRFC have an agreement with the Millenium Stadium for four matches to be played there per year. Sufficient, you would have thought, for all of their marquee matches.
- CRFC currently make revenue from the car park, the on-site clubhouse and bar and the ground's conference facilities. This equates to about £700,000 per year, with a ground rent of £100,000. Compare this to the almost £500,000 they will be paying CCFC for the rental of Leckwith for 18 matches per year (many of which will see around 7,000 people showing up in a 23,000 capacity stadium. CRFC will not be able to earn any non-matchday revenue from Leckwith. Furthermore, the rugby club are locked into this deal contractually for five years, regardless of gates and income. If their business models are wrong, they will still have to cough up the half a million a year.
- CCFC will be the sole owners of Leckwith, and hence will have full control over branding, advertising and marketing.
- CRFC will be forced to split, with the Region going to Leckwith and the Welsh Prem side continuing at CAP, at least until it's sold off
- CCFC, as landlords, are able to terminate the contract after five years which, if CAP is sold off, would leave the capital's rugby team homeless. This is far more likely, apparently, if CCFC get to the prem (which is another reason I'd be happy to see them stay in the championship) due to certain premiership requirements applying.
- Bristol, the current GP strugglers, are currently on the edge of financial meltdown and administration. One of the most resounding reasons cited for their difficulties is the fact that they do not own their own ground, and instead rent from Bristol City (?). Given that gates and TV revenues are lower in the Magners than the GP, why on earth would another club want to adopt that business model?

It all stinks to high heaven. Looks to me like Peter Thomas, alongside his buddy Paul Guy, have their beady eyes on the prime real estate that is CAP. Rumour has it that it would be redeveloped into a hotel and media suite, which would be attached to the Millenium Stadium. This in turn would allow the city to attract events such as the Champions League and UEFA cup finals (apparently a media centre and accommodation are key stipulations for hosting such events), which is why in turn the City Council are tacitly supporting the move as it would bring revenue into the city centre, (and doubtless some tasty kickbacks if it ever occurred). Even though the land was gifted by the Marquis of Bute, and has a covenant limiting it to recreational purposes, I can't imagine that stopping such voracious capitalists in their eternal quest for cash and 'progress'.

So, in summary, CRFC have nothing to gain, and masses to lose, up to and including their own existence as a top level rugby side.

Further information here, should you be interested:

http://www.calltoarms.org.uk/news/20070924_2.php

Surely tho it is Cardiff Athletic club that derive the income form the car park etc. and I'm pretty sure you will find that the agreement is for 20 years as that is the life of my Premier seats!(as far as rugby is concerned)

 

[bendeus]

Surely tho it is Cardiff Athletic club that derive the income form the car park etc. and I'm pretty sure you will find that the agreement is for 20 years as that is the life of my Premier seats!(as far as rugby is concerned)

Just checked back through. You're right, it is 20 years As for your first point, fuck knows. It's very byzantine. I can't see any gain in it for CRFC, tho.

 

[bendeus]

Bloody hell. I don't see why there isn't a campaign from the Blues fans though . Even if the move meant nothing more than a change of scenery, you would still suspect there to be people unhappy enough about leaving to do something about it, just for the history of the Arms Park, nevermind the financial costs.

That's exactly what Call to Arms is all about (see previous link)

 

[Threshers_Flail]

That's exactly what Call to Arms is all about (see previous link)

Shit missed that big time, thanks.

 

[Red Faction]

Agreed. It was a fudge. ...

Maybe the radical solution would have been to divide Wales, genuinely geographically, into four. West, Central, East and North. The former being a merger between Llanelli, Neath and Swansea, the second between Bridgend, Cardiff and Ponty and the third between Ebbw Vale, Pontypool and Newport, with a fourth, development region (a la Connacht) being established on WRU life support funds for the first five years in, say, Wrexham. That way you wouldn't have had half of the country disenfranchised and you'd have had three more, viable and distinct genuine regions that aren't seen as being tied specifically to old, standalone clubs.

Maybe..........

I think they did the right thing. Forcing provinces upon people who have supported their own club for so long is never going to go down well, and there is a lot of political horsetrading that goes on with it.

Llanelli had to be a stand alone club. It's a big (by welsh standards) town all on its own right out in the west, with enough success and support behind it to be viable (in theory).

You couldnt merge it with swansea and neath- hell, they had enough trouble trying to merge swansea with neath in the first place.
And for all the fuss that kicked off over it- you have to say the Ospreys are big success and a glowing advertisement for welsh rugby.

Cardiff, as you quite rightly say have to have a rugby team. If enveloped into a region, then how can that team not play in the capital? Who wouldnt want to play their home games in the arms park?
The trouble is they shot themselves in the foot over marketing- should have taken a leaf out of the osprey's book.

The dragons, i cant really comment on. They're a nothing team. They're ground is poor, their fans are poor. I had more fun watching munster play at the gnoll and at ebbw vale than i ever did in newport.

The trouble with welsh rugby is this- and you quite rightly point out:
They've adopted a provincial format that alienates most of the country.
The north needs to be represented at some level. It was a shame that the warriors went, they were the most successful club at the time- beating wasps etc.

Ultimately, the money was there all along (imo). If you advertise it correctly then there is no reason why those teams shouldnt be selling out their stadia week in, week out (unless you're telling me that rugby isnt that big in the valleys... )

So what is going wrong?

Surely with grand slam successes, strong performances in the HC and EDF then rugby should be doing better.. is it really all down to parochialism?

Im not sure about the attendances but is the welsh prem REALLY stealing fans from the magners league on such a large scale?

 

[1927]

Llanelli had to be a stand alone club. It's a big (by welsh standards) town all on its own right out in the west, with enough success and support behind it to be viable (in theory).

But Llanelli is smaler than Swansea and were less successful in the modern era, so your argument is redundant. Llanelli shiould have been forced to amalgamate with Swansea and come and play in white at St.Helens.

 

[Red Faction]

Well cardiff are top seeds going into the quarterfinals with a convincing demolition of calvisano who will their opponents be at the milstad?

I reckon:

Cardiff v Toulouse
Munster v Ospreys
Bath v Leinster
Harlequins v Tigers