Head of the Army seeks troop withdrawals

[agricola]

To my mind, this is unprecedented that a CGS can come out and - publicly - shoot down Government policy. It will be interesting to see what the consequences of this are, given that he is very new in post. Hats off to him though, and this probably reflects the last phase of an ongoing debate in the MoD:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6046332.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1921346,00.html

 

[Bernie Gunther]

The head of the British Army has said the presence of UK armed forces in Iraq "exacerbates the security problems".

source above.

 

[Yossarian]

It took him three and a half years to figure this out?!

 

[JHE]

The Beeb article notes that it was the Mail that got the story.

Mail: Army chief declares war on Blair: 'We must quit Iraq soon'

 

[Groucho]

He also says that the whole thing was poorly planned.

Unfortunately, he also says that Britain is a 'post-Christian country' and thatthis is a 'shame' and that the 'Muslim threat' needs to be tackled. He backs the presence of UK troops in Afghanistan.

Still, the headline element of his outspokenness can only add to the clamour to pull the troops out of Iraq, and to the turmoil that this war mongering Govt. are in. Good.

Add to the revised Iraqi death toll and the anti-Iraq feeling might become so high that even the Lib Dems might start favouring withdrawal! Meanwhile, it seems the troops will be withdrawn soonish regardless (will it be over Blair's dead body - metaphorically?)

 

[agricola]

It took him three and a half years to figure this out?!

Probably not, but they will have been pooh-poohed and ignored up until we reach this point - which probably accounts for the vehemence of the comments made.

 

[Groucho]

BBCNews24 about to have Reg Keys on for a live interview.

 

[agricola]

BBCNews24 about to have Reg Keys on for a live interview.

Hats off to Reg Keys, good interview, despite the interviewer.

 

[laptop]

Popcorn: check.

Deckchair: check.

* Wanders down to Whitehall *

"But ossifer, this isn't a demonstration! I'm a mere passive spectator watching the show!"

 

[Dhimmi]

It took him three and a half years to figure this out?!

Well he's been in his post since August, so what do you think?

 

[treelover]

This is truly dynamite, in the past, such a thing would have brought down whole govts', indeed there is a massive worldwide media frenzy going on about it now. But none of this shower will resign, after all former ministers who admit to supporting war crimes now get their own two part channel 4 documentary about themselves.

 

[slaar]

He's a new head of the army. But head of the army he is, so to come out with this

The head of the British Army has said the presence of UK armed forces in Iraq "exacerbates the security problems".
In an interview in the Daily Mail, Sir Richard Dannatt, Chief of the General Staff, is quoted as saying the British should "get out some time soon".

He also said: "Let's face it, the military campaign we fought in 2003, effectively kicked the door in."

There are currently more than 7,000 British soldiers in Iraq, based largely in Basra in the south of the country.

is really quite extraordinary.

Good.

 

[ska invita]

Front page of tommorows DAily MAil!

 

[slaar]

So Doug Henderson, Labour MP, said this:

"I think it's extremely remarkable and somewhat amazing that the chief of staff should make such a public statement about government policy seemingly without the endorsement of the government - and it raises quite a serious constitutional issue about whether the elected politicians are making the decisions or whether the armed forces are making the decisions.

But it seems to me that he's not making any decisions, just making his views extremely public.

 

[Thomsy]

Have you guys read the whole of that interview?

1) The general's justification for withdrawal includes an argument based on cultural irreconcilability: “We are in a Muslim country and Muslims' views of foreigners [ie kafirun] in their country are quite clear.”

2) His broader contention is that Britain - and the army - are underpinned by a Judao-Christian tradition.

3) And his argument is that policy - both external and internal - should be directed to defeating the "predatory" Islamist threat.


Edited to add:


Just for anyone who hasn't seen it, it's worth quoting one section at length:

‘Sir Richard warned that the consequences [of Britain’s Iraq policy] will be felt at home, where failure to support Christian values is allowing a predatory Islamist vision to take hold. He said: “When I see the Islamist threat in this country I hope it doesn’t make undue progress because there is a moral and spiritual vacuum in this country. Our society has always been embedded in Christian values; once you have pulled the anchor up there is a danger that our society moves with the prevailing wind. There is an element of the moral compass spinning. I think it is up to society to realise that is the situation we are in. We can’t wish the Islamist challenge to our society away and I believe that the army both in Iraq and Afghanistan and probably wherever we go next, is fighting the foreign dimension of the challenge to our accepted way of life. We need to face up to the Islamist threat, to those who act in the name of Islam and in a perverted way try to impose Islam by force on societies that do not wish it. It is said that we live in a post Christian society. I think that is a great shame. The broader Judaic-Christian tradition has underpinned British society. It underpins the British army.”’

 

[slaar]

Yes I have. Right now I'm happy someone so senior is calling for our troops to leave. I disagree with much in the interview, but that for me right now is more important.

He's the head of the British Army, he's hardly going to be talking about some kind of international multicultural love-in.

 

[Thomsy]

Right now I'm happy someone so senior is calling for our troops to leave. I disagree with much in the interview, but that for me right now is more important.

Fair enough. I'm just pointing out that his arguments for withdrawal are those used by the BNP.

 

[TeeJay]

slaar do you think he is a deluded idiot who shouldn't be head of the army, or do you respect him and think his opinion is worth paying attention to?

Assuming that you already knew what the situation was in Iraq, how does his expressing these views change anything for you?

 

[JHE]

It is a bit surprising that someone so un-PC got appointed to the top job.

 

[Yossarian]

He’s starting to sound like the kind of general that should be sat in an armchair drinking port and writing outraged letters to The Daily Telegraph rather than the kind of general that should be running an army.

 

[slaar]

slaar do you think he is a deluded idiot who shouldn't be head of the army, or do you respect him and think his opinion is worth paying attention to?

Assuming that you already knew what the situation was in Iraq, how does his expressing these views change anything for you?

I think he has extremely old fashioned views on Britain and the Army, and probably shouldn't be the head of the Army because of this.

I also think he's right to think our troops should leave, and also the reasons he comes out with in an immediate sense (exacerbating the problems in Iraq, mainly).

The wider views he hold are damaging, I agree.

 

[slaar]

In terms of how it changes things for me, it makes it more likely that UK troops will leave in the near future.

 

[Thomsy]

He's talking about the moral and political breakdown of the UK. He talks of the threat to the “covenant” – the sacred bond – between the nation and the army. He’s talking about the need to protect the foundations of our society and army.

Seems to me, the British chief of staff was moved to intrude, in almost unprecedented fashion, into the political arena to make proto-Falangist comments.

 

[lostexpectation]

does he want the british army to come home so it can be deployed in bradford?

I thought it was the libdem on skynews was argueing with the presenters that this wasn't a bliar issue, wil this put pressure on bliar and bring brown in but a iraq issue.

he said hte libdem position was to bring in the UN, and the presenters forced a luagh out loud oh, but the UN fumbled when they had the chance and they didn't go in, EXACTLY it might have been bureacrcay but that didn't eanct this fuckup.

wiht headlines everyday about how bad iraq is the UN are still so fucking stupid for not occupying Iraq apparently

it seems like his conservative moral view with be right at home with strict muslims

 

[shagnasty]

for him to say these things is very courageous so i suspect others in the military must have the same views .the only thing i couldn,t give a toss for bush the warmongering bastard but the withdrawal would have to be planned with the american military.the american soldiers have payed a big price for bush and blairs war

 

[Yossarian]

Why make plans with the American military? Fuck ‘em, the British should settle the issue of when they are leaving with either the Iraqi government or the United Nations, and not be so quick to hop in the car next time the Americans invite them to a party.

 

[Andy the Don]

He's talking about the moral and political breakdown of the UK. He talks of the threat to the “covenant” – the sacred bond – between the nation and the army. He’s talking about the need to protect the foundations of our society and army.

The "covenant - sacred bond" between the nation & the army he talks about. Is that the politicians would never put the forces lives at risk without there being a direct threat to the country or the country's interests. Unlike Iraq where there was no threat to the UK. It is the country's armed forces losing faith in politicians which would be a very dangerous development.

 

[dylanredefined]

He said what needed saying.Troops wont be packing up and driving to kuwait anytime soon but its a start.

 

[Luther Blissett]

for him to say these things is very courageous so i suspect others in the military must have the same views .the only thing i couldn,t give a toss for bush the warmongering bastard but the withdrawal would have to be planned with the american military.the american soldiers have payed a big price for bush and blairs war

An SAS soldier ... refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the "illegal" tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces.

After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces.

Ben Griffin told commanders that he thought the Iraq war was illegal

He said he had witnessed "dozens of illegal acts" by US troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqis as "untermenschen" - the Nazi term for races regarded as sub-human.

The decision marks the first time an SAS soldier has refused to go into combat and quit the Army on moral grounds.

Mr Griffin, 28, who spent two years with the SAS, said the American military's "gung-ho and trigger happy mentality" and tactics had completely undermined any chance of winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi population. He added that many innocent civilians were arrested in night-time raids and interrogated by American soldiers, imprisoned in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison, or handed over to the Iraqi authorities and "most probably" tortured.

Mr Griffin eventually told SAS commanders at Hereford that he could not take part in a war which he regarded as "illegal".

He added that he now believed that the Prime Minister and the Government had repeatedly "lied" over the war's conduct.

"I did not join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy," he said. He expected to be labelled a coward and to face a court martial and imprisonment after making what "the most difficult decision of my life" last March.

Instead, he was discharged with a testimonial describing him as a "balanced, honest, loyal and determined individual who possesses the strength of character to have the courage of his convictions".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/12/nsas12.xml

 

[Roadkill]

Dannatt does sound like an old-fashioned Christian Tory, something of a bigot and, as Yoss says, someone who should be writing 'disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' letters to the newspapers, but I'm not sure any of that matters. He's not in a position to influence domestic policy.

Good for him calling for troops to be pulled out of Iraq though. At last someone in the military has the guts to admit that the whole thing is a fuck-up, it's not doing Iraq any good and it's making our own security situation worse. Blair won't listen, but perhaps this is aimed more at his successor anyway? Could it even hasten Blair's demise?

I notice some muppet on BBC Talking Point was suggesting that dannatt should have cleared his remarks with Washington before speaking to the media...