Has China got the perfect system.....

[kyser_soze]

2 interesting articles about racism in China...

http://app1.chinadaily.com.cn/star/2003/0417/cu18-1.html

http://newscafe.ansci.usu.edu/archive/sept2002/0927_racism.html

 

[fela fan]

Wasn't asking you, and my mates a few years ago are no better or worse than the ones you use as examples of what a great bunch the Chinese are.

Oh, and the 'old' attitude? That everyone who wasn't Chinese was a barbarian and in most cases barely human...the same attitude that persisted in the country for about 4000 years in fact...



Do you know something? I've never met anyone who's been to Thailand who'll disparage the whole country based on being pickpocketed or mugged in BK - in fact it's usually much along the lines of 'Absolutely lovely people, some tossers, especially that ladyboy who gave me the clap'...

But this thread is specifically about China and the Chinese, not Thailand (incidentally, what newspaper reports are you referring to about Thailand? During the recent troubles?)

Except your mates were presumably not chinese.

You been around 4000 years? Or was that just taken from the history books?

No, i've never met anyone from thailand who's said that either. Plenty who have not been the victim of any crime have nothing but bad things to say about thais and their country.

I wasn't aware i was referring to any news reports about thailand. Unless you're going to post up a quote of mine from weeks ago.

As for those links, ta. But since i don't look at either paper on the net, i cannot know for sure, but do their net versions carry the same content as their print versions?

But the reality remains that most people in britain have a very limited view of china, and no doubt a big part of it is a human rights abusing government and the next big superpower.

 

[kyser_soze]

Yes, it's from history books.

You actually made comments about a view of Thailand that doesn't tally with your experience in direct reference to the press on this thread...

I personally know how much shit is written about the country i live in (thailand) from my own experiences.

...written in the context of news reports about China...really, you should at least try and remember what you write on the same thread...

And yes, as with the other newspaper sites in the UK the online versions are verbatim copies of the print...

and no doubt a big part of it is a human rights abusing government and the next big superpower.

Both of which it is...

 

[jæd]

As for those links, ta. But since i don't look at either paper on the net, i cannot know for sure, but do their net versions carry the same content as their print versions?

So how do you know about the "big lie" in the British media...? Must be expensive to keep buying all those newspapers that you don't agree with...

 

[johey24]

I stand corrected...cos it was about 6 months ago (there was a thread devoted to not being able to find it on Google.cn)

So do the Chinese still have the whole gwailo thing going on? I know from people that went a few years ago that much like Japan, while there's a lot of surface politeness, lots of old attitudes to foreigners persist.

Also, do you know any local Chinese who'd actively involved in things like Falun Gong, or Free Tibet who are local? Or were involved in protests against 3 Gorges? Do people talk about every topic in public?

Hi again KZ

Don't know about this being banned here. i have been on U75 for about 7 or 8 months posting on the photo site. nobody on there ever mentioned anything about us here being banned. do not know about prior to that.

Re gwailo: From wikipedia, as I had to look it up as I have never come across this: Gweilo sometimes also spelt Gwailo) is a Cantonese term for Caucasian people (generally men). It literally means "ghost", "ghost man" or "ghost chap"[1] and arose to describe the pale complexion, the sometimes "red hair and green/blue eyes" (紅鬚綠眼; Jyutping: hung4 seoi1 luk6 ngaan5) of Caucasians. When the term is translated into English, it is often translated as foreign devil. The term arose in the 19th century and is associated with the demonization of Europeans during the occupation of China by foreign powers.


No, never heard this before. I have heard - and daily do hear - the term "lawhaai" which means foreigner, but also means older man. I do not see this as / feel this is an offensive term as I SEE the people using it, from 2 year olds barely able to speak to 80 year olds barely able to walk. It is merely a term used to describe people not from here. It is more a term / facial expression of "whaau, now I have seen one as well" ....

Also, old attitudes about us foreigners ... if what we experience are old attitudes to lawhaai, then god bless them. in 2 years here i have seen one person looking at me in a negative way .... and that is because i became impatient about him walking so damn slowly in front of me, thus half pushing him aside to pass him by. the attitude i experience here is one of "if i can speak english, if i can have a foreign friend, then it is as good as driving a bmw or benz" - and they love these german vehicles. it gives face (status) ...

FD? No, do not know any. NOBODY speaks about them. nobody i have met even knows about them. i am speaking under correction, but to us it seems as if they are a real tiny minority making a major stink. remember the iraqi politician who claimed sadam had nuclear weapons, upon which the US invaded ... reminds me of that. However, i do know many a local (and foreigner) attending weekly Church services - 2 of me mates from Britain are seriously commited Christian and invited us to a service a few weeks ago. could see nothing different from what i am used to back home. there are several mosques in shanghai and many, many, many a muslim walking around with their little white fezzes (or whatever you call those hats). one of the most popular chain restaurants in china (not only shanghai) is a chain from western china ran exclusively by muslims. buddhists: i would say that about 50% of my students confess to being buddhists, maybe 5% percent christians, none but one is a muslim and the rest don't give a shyte. the buddhists worship openly in maaany a place all over this country. of all this i can show you literally thousands of photos.

by the way, tonight, one month ago, i slept in a bed in a muslim house in the chinese "outback", under a massive tapestry of Mecca. the next morning we had yak yoghurt as breakfast under a 2x1m big poster of a smiling dahlai lama. this was in the east of tibet.

three gorges is different. i have had quite a few discussions where people were very critical of the whole saga, but then, practically and in typically chinese fashion (of compromise) they are pragmatic enough to state that it is a done deal AND that they needed the energy supplied by said dam.

anything as topic of conversation: from my experience - yes. and i am a bit of bastard when it comes to extracting info from them. know how to lead and then trap ... just today i had an interview with a chinese professor writing a book on western perspectives on china. one stated / written pre-condition was that "sensitive issues should be avoided". well, we spoke about nothing but sensitive issues: politics, Mao, the CRev, 3 gorges, religion et al. On tape. With chinese people all around us, out in the open. Not for a second did we feel threatened nor on guard.

Again an example of openly complying with whatever is law, and then ignoring it when it comes to the act.

 

[jæd]

No, i've never met anyone from thailand who's said that either. Plenty who have not been the victim of any crime have nothing but bad things to say about thais and their country.

I've never actually met anyone who said anything bad about Thais, whether they've been to Thailand or not... Can you drop us some links about the "plenty" who have...?

But the reality remains that most people in britain have a very limited view of china, and no doubt a big part of it is a human rights abusing government and the next big superpower.

Probably because its very far away and of not much interest to most Brits...? Rather that than some "big lie"...

(Oh, what happened to links to the "big lie"...? )

 

[fela fan]

Yes, it's from history books.

You actually made comments about a view of Thailand that doesn't tally with your experience in direct reference to the press on this thread...



...written in the context of news reports about China...really, you should at least try and remember what you write on the same thread...

And yes, as with the other newspaper sites in the UK the online versions are verbatim copies of the print...



Both of which it is...

See, you've fallen for the propaganda!! How on earth can you say with apparent certainty that china will be the next superpower?

I've never said they don't abuse human rights, but i have said that the US are worse abusers of human rights, by a country mile. And that is to counter the bullshit and propaganda printed in western media.

You might like to remind yourself that this thread has been resurrected after a period of time had passed. I have better things to do with my memory.

I referred to the general reporting of anything about or from thailand in the british press. And i did see some wild stuff written regarding the coup here over a year ago. The usual inaccurate stuff, with subjetivity being cloaked in objectivity, presented as facts. Read as facts.

It's relevant. Coz when i see first hand the shit and lies written about one foreign country, it seriously undermines my ability to take at first hand what they write about other countries. Then there's the big anglo-american empire to protect, and that's best done by having the media on board.

 

[kyser_soze]

How on earth can you say with apparent certainty that china will be the next superpower?

Don't ask stupid questions fela - China's the world's 3 ro 4th largest economy, has the world's largest army, is a nuclear power, and is set to overtake the US as the worlds primary economy in about 10 years. That's a superpower.

I referred to the general reporting of anything about or from thailand in the british press. And i did see some wild stuff written regarding the coup here over a year ago. The usual inaccurate stuff, with subjetivity being cloaked in objectivity, presented as facts. Read as facts.

OK, so you've gone from saying you didn't say anything about it, to saying something about it, and still not providing the examples you're talking about...

Oh, and this thread? Started today.

 

[jæd]

Oh, and this thread? Started today.

It was started four weeks ago, which is a looooong time for Fela...

 

[kyser_soze]

Was it? AHHH, Jigga edited the OP today...still stands tho...

 

[fela fan]

anything as topic of conversation: from my experience - yes. and i am a bit of bastard when it comes to extracting info from them. know how to lead and then trap ... just today i had an interview with a chinese professor writing a book on western perspectives on china. one stated / written pre-condition was that "sensitive issues should be avoided". well, we spoke about nothing but sensitive issues: politics, Mao, the CRev, 3 gorges, religion et al. On tape. With chinese people all around us, out in the open. Not for a second did we feel threatened nor on guard.

Again an example of openly complying with whatever is law, and then ignoring it when it comes to the act.

This is an interesting thing to read. Because british people consistently say that such freedoms do not exist in china. My experience, albeit they were in thailand telling me, runs counter to that, and i have asked all of them that i meet about how free they are to talk about the same topics back home. They always say they are, and this includes deans at major unis. I know they might be lying, but that's why i start up threads asking for confirmation. I don't think they are mind, coz we have long and fruitful discussions on all kinds of things.

I just think they have a great thirst for knowledge, both of language and culture in western countries. I think to a degree it is to make up for lost time during the cultural revolution and the rest of the mao years. The deans and teachers i meet tell me that they and their students don't just want the language, they want cultural knowledge too, and to understand different ways of thinking and approaches to life.

That does not equate to my countryfolk back home. This is not a criticism, but an observation of something that seems a reaction to recent histories.

 

[jæd]

Was it? AHHH, Jigga edited the OP today...still stands tho...

Well... There was a break of three weeks since I got bored of the typical Fela evasions. And from someone who smokes enough as Fela does, you kinda would've expected him to forget his posts by now...!

 

[fela fan]

Was it? AHHH, Jigga edited the OP today...still stands tho...

So many glaring errors on this thread kyser. He started the thread on 14 october, and edited it the same day, not today.

So you're asking me to remember things from a couple of weeks ago...

 

[jæd]

So you're asking me to remember things from a couple of weeks ago...

Not the most taxing of tasks, now surely...? Espcially as they are written down on a BB for you..!

 

[fela fan]

Don't ask stupid questions fela - China's the world's 3 ro 4th largest economy, has the world's largest army, is a nuclear power, and is set to overtake the US as the worlds primary economy in about 10 years. That's a superpower.



OK, so you've gone from saying you didn't say anything about it, to saying something about it, and still not providing the examples you're talking about...

Oh, and this thread? Started today.

I didn't ask any stupid question. I cannot believe that you reckon they will be the world's next superpower based on the reasons you gave. Either way, my question was not stupid, even if i'm going to be wrong. Personally i think world history will record the US as the last superpower. Following them will be about eight big blocks that will act as a counter-balancing force against each other from dominating. I think we're coming towards the first period of non-war, but all this is another thread really. But don't go calling me for asking stupid questions. It's really impolite, and you have no right to be so certain about a future event while calling me stupid for my question.

Please reevaluate some of what you've said in light of your discovery that thsi thread is three weeks old.

 

[johey24]

I have one (or three) johey. And it's half based on my long-term experiences in thailand of knowing and meeting thai people, and meeting others from all over the world, and on your comments that you've been to several countries on your travels.

Without asking you to generalise unfairly, what are your thoughts on chinese people that you have met, and what kind of freedoms do you think they have to talk about what they want to talk about? What kind of state interference do you think they have in their general lives?

FF

First one is easy. What do i think about the people I have met here? I love them. Nothing else. I was asked an interesting question today by the person who interviewed me on my thoughts about China, and that still has me thinking: How do I know that they are not lying to me?

Well, I do not know. I just work on my basic knowledge of humans, and I do not believe humans are different here or anywhere else. I am pretty sure I will know if they were all telling lies.

Freedoms: i think I have answered that one in KZ's reply. I have never been told, "Don't talk about that" by anyone.

State interference: from our western perspective, i'd say the local news concentrate on positive and uplifting stories. in this way it influences people in a way that can not be underestimated nor even maybe understood by people from the west. it ironically has the effect of the majority of people turning off the news (as most people do in the west) and ignoring politics (as most of us in the west do, again) as they inherently sense a controlling finger on the button (as not enough of us do).

this partly and inadvertently leads to the sociology of ignoring laws that are silly with the result of a social sense of communal values and traditions forming the backbone of mass behaviour. and wallah, you have a self-regulated population, realising the alternative is social anarchy in a part of the world where communal adherence is paramount for social order because of the masses of people involved.

thus, attempted state control, in many a respect, has a liberating effect. weird, i know .....

 

[fela fan]

The thread started today, the opening post was edited today. Urban75 was banned in china, people are locked up for saying the wrong things, china will be most certainly the next superpower, to believe otherwise is stupid.

Now mate, just step back a bit. If you really don't want to take on board what i say, then have a read and give us your reactions to johey's posts.

 

[kyser_soze]

I'm sorry that you've got a memory like perforated cheese, and that you'd forget deeply held opinions about how Thailand is written about in the UK press...

And it is a stupid question...of course China will become a superpower...the Russians are just about crawling back to that status, the EU has never pretended it wants it (nor does it have the unity to do so...it being comprised of lots of ex mini superpowers)

I mean I define superpower on the basis of economy and military strength, and on influence over world events. All of which China has.

Following them will be about eight big blocks that will act as a counter-balancing force against each other from dominating. I think we're coming towards the first period of non-war,

You're an optimist...

 

[kyser_soze]

The thread started today, the opening post was edited today. Urban75 was banned in china, people are locked up for saying the wrong things, china will be most certainly the next superpower, to believe otherwise is stupid.

Now mate, just step back a bit. If you really don't want to take on board what i say, then have a read and give us your reactions to johey's posts.

That I'm surprised by the apparent level of freedom (altho what's interesting is the way FG are written off in this: 'FD? No, do not know any. NOBODY speaks about them. nobody i have met even knows about them. i am speaking under correction, but to us it seems as if they are a real tiny minority making a major stink. remember the iraqi politician who claimed sadam had nuclear weapons, upon which the US invaded') since the people I know who've been to China say very, very different things about the regime.

The thing about gwailo fair enough - again, the reports I've had back was that people were polite to the point of obsequiousness, much as in Japan.

As to Freedom of Speech...well, I've heard remarkably different tales from two mates who went to Tibet recently, both there and in China, but hey, it's a big country.

Still doesn't change my basic premise that it's a superpower and is, and will continue, to behave like one.

 

[fela fan]

FF

First one is easy. What do i think about the people I have met here? I love them. Nothing else. I was asked an interesting question today by the person who interviewed me on my thoughts about China, and that still has me thinking: How do I know that they are not lying to me?

Well, I do not know. I just work on my basic knowledge of humans, and I do not believe humans are different here or anywhere else. I am pretty sure I will know if they were all telling lies.

Freedoms: i think I have answered that one in KZ's reply. I have never been told, "Don't talk about that" by anyone.

State interference: from our western perspective, i'd say the local news concentrate on positive and uplifting stories. in this way it influences people in a way that can not be underestimated nor even maybe understood by people from the west. it ironically has the effect of the majority of people turning off the news (as most people do in the west) and ignoring politics (as most of us in the west do, again) as they inherently sense a controlling finger on the button (as not enough of us do).

this partly and inadvertently leads to the sociology of ignoring laws that are silly with the result of a social sense of communal values and traditions forming the backbone of mass behaviour. and wallah, you have a self-regulated population, realising the alternative is social anarchy in a part of the world where communal adherence is paramount for social order because of the masses of people involved.

thus, attempted state control, in many a respect, has a liberating effect. weird, i know .....

Firstly well done on finding a place you love and want to live in! The same happened to me in thailand almost as far back as when you started on your travels. Secondly, your last comment: most interesting, for very similar outcomes occur here in thailand. Thais tend to follow rules very closely, but when it comes to laws, if they don't like them, or perceive them to be silly, they simply ignore them. Including the police.

Yep, i love the thai people, so can understand your reactions to the chinese. There is a significant amount of second and third generation chinese thais these days. The chinese people i meet who come over here to study with me are fantastic people, and i love chatting to them. They all implore me to go over there and visit them, and i shall do as soon as i can find the time and money. I can't wait to sample this fascinating country as soon as possible. It feels like a really positive place to be. I've heard a lot about living in cities from mates who have gone there to teach. I've heard just about no negative stuff.

I'm sure chinese people, russians alike, are most able to spot controlling news. The worry is that this is not the case in the likes of britain or america.

Finally, regarding the possibility of people lying. It really is so much harder to lie than tell the truth, especially when the talk is over a longer period of time. And yes, agreed, my experiences tell me that everyone really has so much more similarities than differences.

 

[fela fan]

You're an optimist...

Aha, something correct at last...! It's good to see you have got your faculties back in operating order kyser. On such a happy note i retire for the night.

 

[weltweit]

Does anyone know how the Chinese Moon mission is going?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Does anyone know how the Chinese Moon mission is going?

I believe they sucessfully achieved moon orbit yesterday. Not bad for something made in China.

 

[Jessiedog]

Tell you what fela, when China ceases to be the world's largest executioner,

Ummmmm.....

A better measure, surely, would be executions on a per capita basis?

In which case, Singapore actually takes the crown.

this website is banned there

No it isn't.





Woof

 

[david dissadent]

Rather than start a new thread Ill just nick this one.

China's econmic woes continue.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20071114.RCHINA14/TPStory/Business

For all the growth there are huge challanges for China. Global food prices are bloody sky high and domestic produced food in China is also high. Commodities that it has helped jack up are causing global inflation. The miricle is leaving its first easy phase. Internalising consumption is the next step. Much harder.

 

[nosos]

...if you are a blatant, in your face capitalist that is?
I mean, the people have no votes, no unions, no free media, including the internet, no rights at all in fact.
It must be easier to become a billionairre, if you are a twat that is, in China now than anywhere else in the world yes?

How can the rest of the occidental world compete with this style of autocracy?
If china continues without change surely this will eventually de-stabilise the capitalist system as we know it? Good or bad thing?

Opinions please.

I think that it shows that the relationship between liberal democracy and capitalism was historical contingency rather than necessity. They were seen as necessary linked both for propaganda purposes (capitalism = democracy = liberalism = freedom) and also simply as a result of bad political theory. If authoritarian capitalist regimes can outperform liberal democratic ones then, particularly given the erosion of economic sovereignity through globalisation, what sort of pressure will corporations (succesfully) exercise to turn liberal democratic capitalist systems into authoritarian ones?

Of course Will Hutton's new book which is sitting on my shelf completely disagrees with this and argues that the west needs to help China democratise to stave off a pending economic collapse which will devestate the western economy but I've not read it yet . . .

 

[david dissadent]

authoritarian capitalist regimes can outperform liberal democratic ones then,

No authoritarian regimes are outpeforming liberal democracies with the unusual exception of Singapore.

Command economies can work well with the follower model for a while but once all the gains of late development have been made... i.e. once the technological development that can be learnt by immatating others slows down, then liberal democracies are cruising way ahead by being more flexible and responsive. Also democracies are more amiable to its peoples needs and as an economy expands people begin to want new things that are not seen from on high or are not priorities. Often it can start with feeling they have a say in taxation or cracking down on corruption, but as people become richer they want a say and democracies give them that.

 

[nosos]

My point was you can have, in a manner of speaking, an authoritarian market economy. You can grant freedom to domestic capital while controlling foreign capital and cracking down on labour organisation.

 

[david dissadent]

My point was you can have, in a manner of speaking, an authoritarian market economy. You can grant freedom to domestic capital while controlling foreign capital and cracking down on labour organisation.

Sounds like the modern US really.

 

[nosos]

Precisely but without the ideological baggage of all that democracy bollocks.