Has China got the perfect system.....

[johey24]

Yes, it has been quite a revelation.

I have been a Gypsy Teacher (I travel, work in a country for a year or so, and then move on to the next country) for most of the last 18 years, so I have seen a bit of the world. When we decided to come to China in 2005 it was merely for the sake of the experience, and it was supposed to be a one or maaaybe two year stint. It took us six months to decide that this will be the last place on our trek. This is the place where we wanna stay and build our family.

This decision was made simply because of what we experience(d) here. These are:
1. On a personal level, an acceptance and open-mindedness we as a gay couple have not experienced anywhere else.
2. A deeply inherent, almost naturally soft and gentle people.
3. A social liberalism that goes beyond rhetoric, slogans, Politically Correctness or a "because my dad told me ..." mentality.
4. A modern society like you will find anywhere in Europe or the 7 main English speaking countries with a rural community that is obviously less "modern", but who has a social value system of thousands of years from which to draw for guidance and principles.
5. A principle of "If you agree with a law, abide by it. If you don't, ignore it".
6. A genuine believe in compromise, one of the central teachings of Confucius.

Regarding the media. I grew up with the BBC and the old VoA glued to my ear. Wherever I went in the world, I had my little short wave radio with me as I had to have my daily doses of BBC News. Not until I came to live here did I start questioning the objectivity and even honesty of the BBC. Now I do. I still listen to it daily (in fact, I am listening to it now) but the sad part is that now I listen to it more critically. I no longer accept what they say at face value.

A very interesting report on BBC was one broadcast in December 2006. Their correspondent in China (and I can not remember his name now) left China to go back to Britain after a number of years living in China. They had an interview with him picking his brains on his years in this country. The most revealing statement he made on this programme was that, in all his years in China, he filed ONE positive report. One. He lived here for years, and he could find ONE positive thing to report on about this vast country? One has to question that.

Below is a link to another "alternative" look at China I found last night. Have a look if you have the time.
http://viproxy.net/index.php?hl=f5&q=uggc://gurpuvanqrfx.oybtfcbg.pbz/2006_09_01_nepuvir.ugzy

This is a reply that could go on for pages, but let's just say that I am more than willing to answer questions about what I experience here, should you or anyone else have questions. What I am not willing to do is to get into a slinging match with someone on here.

Have a good day.

 

[Yossarian]

I'm more than aware of some of modern day problems there, eg the pollution (same as most of asia though), but i'm impressed at how enthusiastic, optimistic and open the people are, based on the contact i have with them. I started that thread i linked back to in an effort to find out if my limited experience with chinese people represented the norm or not.

I don't think anyone's going to deny that the Chinese are, in general, a great bunch of lads, but that doesn't mean their government isn't repressive.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

...if you are a blatant, in your face capitalist that is?
I mean, the people have no votes, no unions, no free media, including the internet, no rights at all in fact.
It must be easier to become a billionairre, if you are a twat that is, in China now than anywhere else in the world yes?

How can the rest of the occidental world compete with this style of autocracy?
If china continues without change surely this will eventually de-stabilise the capitalist system as we know it? Good or bad thing?

Opinions please.

Are bribery,corruption etc part of the perfect system?

 

[fela fan]

I don't think anyone's going to deny that the Chinese are, in general, a great bunch of lads, but that doesn't mean their government isn't repressive.

This goes without saying. Most people are, most governments are. But often china is talked about by people who base their 'knowledge' of china on what they've read in western media. And i argue here and elsewhere that this is unlikely to lead to proper relations between china and western countries, either on a government to government basis, or a people to people basis, due to misinformation, and sometimes, disinformation. And many times it seems to me that those writing are unaware of the subjective bias that unconsciously colours just about everything they say.

But i am indeed interested by the chinese leaders. I know they're bad people for tibet and executions and so on, but leaders of a country usually reflect the major attributes of her people. And if i've met open-minded chinese people, open for any discussion on any topic, open to compromise, open to the good things from the west, but also enjoying and defending their own good things, and with a positive outlook on life, then i wonder if china's leaders are people with similar outlooks.

One thing that i intuitively feel is that unlike the american elites (and the uk ones to a lesser degree), those in power in china have no need nor objective to rule the world. Largely i'd say that they're excited about their future, and are looking for friendly relations with countries, rather than invading them and dominating them.

I know posters will bring up tibet and africa and so on, but that does not detract from my comments.

And they only need look at the pre-chinese takeover (takeback?) of hong kong and all the alarmist stories in the british press, and compare that feverish and fear-mongering narrative with the post-chinese takeover of hong kong.

No set of politicians are of much good in this world, but in relative stakes i think i've seen enough of both sorts to prefer the chinese way than the american way. Modern times i'm talking about, now, not before.

 

[fela fan]

Are bribery,corruption etc part of the perfect system?

There ain't no perfect system anywhere, and i know of nowhere that does not have bribery and corruption in their system. The US in particular has huge amounts of corruption in their system. Anywhere money changes hands corruption follows.

Jigga's was a question, not an affirmation.

 

[Yossarian]

But i am indeed interested by the chinese leaders. I know they're bad people for tibet and executions and so on, but leaders of a country usually reflect the major attributes of her people. And if i've met open-minded chinese people, open for any discussion on any topic, open to compromise, open to the good things from the west, but also enjoying and defending their own good things, and with a positive outlook on life, then i wonder if china's leaders are people with similar outlooks.

Sorry, but I totally disagree with that - I don't think that the leaders of a country necessarily reflect the attributes of its people in the slightest, even in countries where they get to choose their leaders.

 

[fela fan]

Sorry, but I totally disagree with that - I don't think that the leaders of a country necessarily reflect the attributes of its people in the slightest, even in countries where they get to choose their leaders.

Fair enough. I'm not sure about it myself, but i've read this before, and definitely feel there's something in it: leaders, not the leader. I have yet to be fully persuaded of it, but to my mind, especially in a democracy, the leader wants only one thing above all else: to be elected into power, or to be kept in power. They are little more than electable prostitutes, and will do whatever they think the public want to meet these objectives.

Character wise, and typical traits wise, i reckon there's very likely something in it, but this is now risking derailing the thread.

 

[Yossarian]

I have yet to be fully persuaded of it, but to my mind, especially in a democracy, the leader wants only one thing above all else: to be elected into power, or to be kept in power. They are little more than electable prostitutes, and will do whatever they think the public want to meet these objectives.

Yeah, but in most non-democracies you've got to be pretty power-hungry to rise to the top too, probably more so! The Burmese junta come to mind, I certainly don't think they reflect the qualities of what the Burmese people are actually like.

China's got a big government with a lot of people involved so it's hard to categorise them all, but as a general rule I'd say that the qualities required to rise to the top of the Chinese Communist Party are likely to be quite different from the better qualities of the Chinese people.

 

[fela fan]

Yeah, but in most non-democracies you've got to be pretty power-hungry to rise to the top too, probably more so! The Burmese junta come to mind, I certainly don't think they reflect the qualities of what the Burmese people are actually like.

China's got a big government with a lot of people involved so it's hard to categorise them all, but as a general rule I'd say that the qualities required to rise to the top of the Chinese Communist Party are likely to be quite different from the better qualities of the Chinese people.

Yeah, burma is the main reason i put the world 'usually' in when i first posted on this.

But consider this: there are plenty of people, and let's just use the UK as an example here, who never become leaders of the country, but they certainly get into positions of power over other people. It may be fairly safely assumed that their qualities may reflect those of the leaders.

And then there's the bit where many people don't get into that position of power, but nevertheless have certain ideas about what the qualities they think a good leader should possess, whether that leader is a football captain, a business manager, a dean at a university, a trade union leader, a supervisor, whatever. In britain compromise, for example, is seen as a negative trait in leaders, unlike say italy or thailand, or dare i say it, china.

Even that bastard thaksin in thailand had more popularity than any other leader i've seen in my time living here.

Obviously the likes of burma and north korea and maybe a few african countries are excluded from my original comment, but the more i think about the connections between a nation's leaders and people, the more i see similarities. Not forgetting the intermediary role of the print and tv media...

 

[Yossarian]

I can't think of too many countries out there where the people are lucky enough to get leaders that reflect their qualities - there's a few places with fairly enlightened leaders out there but for the most part, seems like the scum rises to the top...

 

[fela fan]

but for the most part, seems like the scum rises to the top...

Yeah, this is the bit that constantly tries to undermine my argument. Successfully many times.

Perhaps i need to differentiate between qualities and actions...

 

[kyser_soze]

Tell you what fela, when China ceases to be the world's largest executioner, when it stops locking people up for blogging, belonging to falun gong, for daring to report specific things about the leadership...indeed, when it's government has the balls to broadcast a rocket launch live instead of 2 minutes behind realtime just in case it blew up, then you can start praising the way the country is run.

I don't doubt that of the 1.4bn people who live there that there are some great people, who are industrious, pleasant and good to be around...doesn't change the fact that this website is banned there does it?

Besides, I reckon that The Party has a long term plan...they're all hard othodox Marxists, and that this whole 'capitalism' business is simply them having understood that you can't go from 90% agrarian economy=>communism without the intervening capitalist industrialisation process...

 

[fela fan]

Tell you what fela, when China ceases to be the world's largest executioner, when it stops locking people up for blogging, belonging to falun gong, for daring to report specific things about the leadership...indeed, when it's government has the balls to broadcast a rocket launch live instead of 2 minutes behind realtime just in case it blew up, then you can start praising the way the country is run.

Let's get this right at the outset kyser, before any more misunderstandings. I'm not praising china's leaders, nor the leaders of any country. I am not a fan of a single politician anywhere on the planet.

My main point in posting is that i like to hear from people with direct experience of the country, and to see how it differs from the information contained in western media. My own experiences of chinese people, and other people who have lived and worked there tell me a different story to my country's media. I try to find out if the stuff i hear is an exception, or the rule.

And in my box of newspaper cuttings i have a picture of two young men (perhaps in their late 20s) being led away to the gallows for selling dope. It is one of the most heart-rending pictures i have and i hate the fuckers who oversee execution everywhere, china not excepted.

I also know the story of tibet pretty well, and it's a complete disaster human-wise. I also hate a certain strand of 'asianness' that the chinese have as well. I also dislike many other things, including such practices as eating monkeys, and creating demands that have virtually wiped out the tiger population, the most greatest animal in our kingdom.

I could go on and on and on. But what's worse than all of that is the bullshit, lies, propaganda, misinformation and disinformation that passes itself in the british media with regard to the world. If we had a bit more truth, then the peoples of the world might better understand the extreme crimes committed by their leaders, and start reigning them in. But no, how can we in the developed west do that when we have a media who perpetrate the big lie?

Let's not forget that the US come in a second to China over executions... with iran third i believe. Ahh, such good company they keep!

 

[jæd]

I could go on and on and on. But what's worse than all of that is the bullshit, lies, propaganda, misinformation and disinformation that passes itself in the british media with regard to the world. If we had a bit more truth, then the peoples of the world might better understand the extreme crimes committed by their leaders, and start reigning them in. But no, how can we in the developed west do that when we have a media who perpetrate the big lie?

Go on then Fela, tell us what the "big lie" is... And can you point how this big lie is worse than the problems of the Chinese Govt you just highlighted... Ta...!

 

[kyser_soze]

Thing is, if you actually bothered reading the UK press instead of just parroting what you think it says, you'd know that there are any number of stories which don't automatically paint China in a bad light - in recent months there has been coverage of the growing animal rights movement in China for example. The most recent would be Paul Merton's travelogue around China, showing it to be, like most other places in the world, full of weird and crazy people and things.

The fact is it's the Chinese govt that locks people up for stating their opinion on their blogs; that limits access rights to the internet; that has illegally colonised another country and engaged in one of the quietest examples of ethnic cleansing ever; is repeating the behaviour of both US and Russia WRT it's behaviour in Africa (best example yet - having been shown footage of a Darfur refugee camp, the Chinese envoy saying 'We have seen no evidence of the suffering you're talking about)...you persistent efforts to big up the Chinese people notwithstanding (and I've seen enough vox pops on various interntational channels (Al-Jaz for one) that mark many in China as just as nationalist and insistent that they're country behave very much like the US economically as anyone in the US or EU.

 

[jæd]

The fact is it's the Chinese govt that locks people up for stating their opinion on their blogs; that limits access rights to the internet; that has illegally colonised another country and engaged in one of the quietest examples of ethnic cleansing ever; is repeating the behaviour of both US and Russia WRT it's behaviour in Africa (best example yet - having been shown footage of a Darfur refugee camp, the Chinese envoy saying 'We have seen no evidence of the suffering you're talking about)...you persistent efforts to big up the Chinese people notwithstanding (and I've seen enough vox pops on various interntational channels (Al-Jaz for one) that mark many in China as just as nationalist and insistent that they're country behave very much like the US economically as anyone in the US or EU.

Thing is, I don't think I've ever seen Western media saying that the actual Chinese People are any different from any other country. It's more to do the Chinese Govt... (And really the same with nearly every country. The Govt often doesn't reflect the People...)

 

[fela fan]

Thing is, if you actually bothered reading the UK press instead of just parroting what you think it says, you'd know that there are any number of stories which don't automatically paint China in a bad light - in recent months there has been coverage of the growing animal rights movement in China for example. The most recent would be Paul Merton's travelogue around China, showing it to be, like most other places in the world, full of weird and crazy people and things.

So, could you let me know in which papers exactly those any number of stories are written in? I hope it's not the guardian or independent to which you refer, with a tiny proportion of the british population reading them. And in such relatively sane newspapers, it's really only preaching to the converted.

I contend that the very large majority of the british population will have very stereotyped views over what china is and represents. Just like their views on thailand...

I do read the british press, whenever i'm in britain, and the likes of the guardian and the independent online whenever i'm feeling strong in mind and stomach.

Now do tell me i'm wrong and tell me how the sun and mail are publishing positive stories of china to the extent that the british people are learning objectively what china is about.

 

[kyser_soze]

I contend that the very large majority of the british population will have very stereotyped views over what china is and represents.

Well since a Chinese property company built a whole area called 'Little London' that looks like something out of a Dickens picture postcard, I suspect that this is reciprocated in the minds of Chinese people as well.

A quick check on The Sun's website reveals...not a lot is written about China really; what is written is generally positive (hard working, new workshop of the world, why can't lazy Brits work as hard for no money etc), with the occassional stories about Falun Gong...a quick look through the DMs website has the following:

Several stories about SARS, largely praising the government's efforts to quarnatine people; several articles about the execution of corrupt officials and businessmen; pandas; Chelsea FC on a supporter recruitment drive; concerns over the anti-sat missile the Chinese used to blow an orbiting satellite up; talks between China and Japan on East China; a few articles on the smog in Beijing and it's affect on both the Olympics and the opening of Disney-Sino; several stories on the moon mission.

So once again, your cock-arsed theory about bias goes out the window really doesn't it?

 

[fela fan]

So once again, your cock-arsed theory about bias goes out the window really doesn't it?

Yeah, if you say so kyser. All that evidence you've posted up is too much for me.

 

[kyser_soze]

Well you haven't provided a jot to even support your proposition of consistent anti-China bias except for the BBC guy (and that was 1 journo, not the whole corporation...)

 

[fela fan]

Well you haven't provided a jot to even support your proposition of consistent anti-China bias except for the BBC guy (and that was 1 journo, not the whole corporation...)

It wasn't me that mentioned the bbc chap.

You have yet again undermined and wrongly summarised my position on something: i have not even proposed anything like a "consistent anti-China bias". It's this very method of misrepresenting people that the british media employ. Are you an employee of theirs or something? What you do is so fucking slack, and to be honest quite demotivating.

If you want to show me how the british media present china any differently to what i'm saying, then why don't you post up some links to articles that support your claim? No, instead you come up with your own subjective summary, no links, then have the temerity to say i'm providing no support.

The idea of the sun writing serious stories about china is somewhat hilarious. I'd love to see some of them.

And no doubt the mail is doing a blinding job on telling its readership what life's like for chinese people, and some nice objective commentary on the chinese leaders' ambitions on a global scale.

Really.

 

[johey24]

...doesn't change the fact that this website is banned there does it?

Sorry KZ, this website is not banned here.

Also, the BBC guy, as u call it, was referred to by me.

As said, if you guys have questions, ask away. Defending / arguing etc, not my style. Leave that to the dirty politicians from all sides of all oceans. I can only tell you what I see and experience here.

 

[kyser_soze]

i have not even proposed anything like a "consistent anti-China bias".

Trying to find informed analysis about china in western media is a very difficult search.

I've read so much shit about foreign nations in british media that i have seen first hand that is not true, so i don't pay too much attention any more. They may get the odd thing right, but wading through shit to find it is not my cup of tea mate.

I'm simply offering alternative sources of information about china and chinese people to the standard british media fare.

I started it with the express intention of uncovering a clearer picture about the country than the one painted by british, and western, media in general.

I will add again that i've seen the differences between the thailand of the british media and the thailand of real. And it's a chasm. It gives me good reason to be distrustful of anything they say about other foreign nations.

The least best thing would be reading about the country through anglo-american perspectives/biases in their media, and i say that based on my experience with the bullshit written about thailand.

To sum up, i've seen rubbish written in the british media about one country with first hand experience based on me living in that country, and therefore make the conclusion they're liable to do the same thing over other nations. At the least it makes me distrustful and wary of believing what they write.

And i have some credible experience to post up here on the subject of china based both on speaking to chinese people for the last three years, and to westerners who lived or live there. Frequently these talks yield a totally different picture of china to the one painted by western media.

and what i hear from them describes a completely different country to the one that is written about in the daily liars back in britain.

But what's worse than all of that is the bullshit, lies, propaganda, misinformation and disinformation that passes itself in the british media with regard to the world.

Just some choice quotes from you on this thread alone fela...

 

[jbob]

.

 

[kyser_soze]

...doesn't change the fact that this website is banned there does it?

Sorry KZ, this website is not banned here.

Also, the BBC guy, as u call it, was referred to by me.

As said, if you guys have questions, ask away. Defending / arguing etc, not my style. Leave that to the dirty politicians from all sides of all oceans. I can only tell you what I see and experience here.

I stand corrected...cos it was about 6 months ago (there was a thread devoted to not being able to find it on Google.cn)

So do the Chinese still have the whole gwailo thing going on? I know from people that went a few years ago that much like Japan, while there's a lot of surface politeness, lots of old attitudes to foreigners persist.

Also, do you know any local Chinese who'd actively involved in things like Falun Gong, or Free Tibet who are local? Or were involved in protests against 3 Gorges? Do people talk about every topic in public?

 

[fela fan]

So do the Chinese still have the whole gwailo thing going on? I know from people that went a few years ago that much like Japan, while there's a lot of surface politeness, lots of old attitudes to foreigners persist.

Lots of old attitudes to foreigners persist, coz you've got mates who say this. Wow, scientific that kyser.

Depending on which westerner you speak to in thailand, he will say the same as your mates about thais, or he will think them the gentlest kindest acceptingest of people.

Funny this subjectivity lark. So, gwailo in china, gaijin in japan, farang in thailand. Fucking nigger, and take this beating, in britain. What's the difference?

So, your people went a few years ago. And they talked of a few of the 'old' attitudes to foreigners. What, exactly, were these 'old' attitudes, how old were they, and why do you presume they existed, if you're right about these old values?

As for the surface politeness, it's quite well known that many asians can shake your hand, smile at you, and hate you all at the same time. Of course, back in the UK they do it somewhat more openly if they don't like you, especially if you have the wrong colour skin. And i saw it with my own eyes, a few years ago, i didn't need to rely upon my mates' proof.

 

[fela fan]

I stand corrected...cos it was about 6 months ago (there was a thread devoted to not being able to find it on Google.cn)

I think you'll find that renegade dog has happily been posting for far longer than six months.

And not finding it on the chinese google is hardly the same as it being banned.

But let's not quibble over such minor inconveniences.

On what else should you be corrected? And where are those links from the sun and mail? You tell me i provide no support, but do nothing about it yourself, save for your mates' experiences and a kyser summary of the sun and mail based on something somewhere.

 

[fela fan]

As said, if you guys have questions, ask away. Defending / arguing etc, not my style. Leave that to the dirty politicians from all sides of all oceans. I can only tell you what I see and experience here.

I have one (or three) johey. And it's half based on my long-term experiences in thailand of knowing and meeting thai people, and meeting others from all over the world, and on your comments that you've been to several countries on your travels.

Without asking you to generalise unfairly, what are your thoughts on chinese people that you have met, and what kind of freedoms do you think they have to talk about what they want to talk about? What kind of state interference do you think they have in their general lives?

 

[kyser_soze]

Wasn't asking you, and my mates a few years ago are no better or worse than the ones you use as examples of what a great bunch the Chinese are.

Oh, and the 'old' attitude? That everyone who wasn't Chinese was a barbarian and in most cases barely human...the same attitude that persisted in the country for about 4000 years in fact...

Depending on which westerner you speak to in thailand, he will say the same as your mates about thais, or he will think them the gentlest kindest acceptingest of people.

Do you know something? I've never met anyone who's been to Thailand who'll disparage the whole country based on being pickpocketed or mugged in BK - in fact it's usually much along the lines of 'Absolutely lovely people, some tossers, especially that ladyboy who gave me the clap'...

But this thread is specifically about China and the Chinese, not Thailand (incidentally, what newspaper reports are you referring to about Thailand? During the recent troubles?)

 

[kyser_soze]

Recent Daily Mail articles on China

The Sun on China