Has China got the perfect system.....

[fela fan]

And what, pray-tell, is "the list"...?



So... You think the Times got misled, then...?



Yep..? And I travel quite regularly to the US, and people there are appear able to say what they want to say, travel where they want to travel, etc... And from what I see on the UK I still see we have elections, freedom of expression, etc... Have those in China yet...?

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/10/12/4502/

I didn't read the times article, and i don't care whether they were misled or not. I've read so much shit about foreign nations in british media that i have seen first hand that is not true, so i don't pay too much attention any more. They may get the odd thing right, but wading through shit to find it is not my cup of tea mate.

Through several discussions i've had with chinese people, it appears to me they have many more topics available for discussion than american people. They are willing to talk about anything. I will add that these discussions do not take place in china, but nevertheless they talk to me about what they do in their country, and i'm prepared to accept what they say as the truth.

And looking at one or two urbanites, the same can be said for them. If you have the 'wrong' view, just look at the personal attacks that swiftly follow.

 

[JoePolitix]

I'm not resorting to anything exclusively. And what chinese people tell me about living in their own country is not exactly 'hearsay'. I've seen enough shit in newspapers to last several lifetimes. I prefer to find out things from the mouths of real living people, not pissed up lazy journos.

Trying to find informed analysis about china in western media is a very difficult search. And getting it from you seems even harder based on your kneejerk reaction to my post earlier on.

The point is Fela, that "X told Y about Z" has very little evidential or factual value.

E.g - I could say "alot of Chinese people tell me that Fela Fan spends most of his time talking out the wrong hole" - how are you going to disprove that?

If people write something about the Chinese government that you think is factually wrong you need to explain why you think its wrong and ideally with reference to informed sources. Untill then why should anybody take you seriously?

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not resorting to anything exclusively. And what chinese people tell me about living in their own country is not exactly 'hearsay'. I've seen enough shit in newspapers to last several lifetimes. I prefer to find out things from the mouths of real living people, not pissed up lazy journos.

Trying to find informed analysis about china in western media is a very difficult search. And getting it from you seems even harder based on your kneejerk reaction to my post earlier on.

How many people are there in China Fela? Are there different regions? Classes? Do these experience things differently?

 

[butchersapron]

The point is Fela, that "X told Y about Z" has very little evidential or factual value.

E.g - I could say "alot of Chinese people tell me that Fela Fan spends most of his time talking out the wrong hole" - how are you going to disprove that?

If people write something about the Chinese government that you think is factually wrong you need to explain why you think its wrong and ideally with reference to informed sources. Untill then why should anybody take you seriously?

No one does, That's why you are 10% wasting your time. The reasons behiond this you shall very shortly experience for yourself.

 

[fela fan]

Untill then why should anybody take you seriously?

Indeed mate, why should they? No-one's forcing them to. Up to them. I'm not looking to be taken seriously, i'm here to add my tuppence worth for people to do what they want with it. Some people will place merit in my comments based on my context, others will react in the same way as you. Still others will be neutral. Debating's not about proof in my book, it's about voices that one can then react to in their own way, but not shut down.

Owt wrong with that? Warrants your initial reaction to my post eh?

 

[butchersapron]

Mahathir eh? Still bigging that homophobic big capitalist scum up?

 

[butchersapron]

Debating's not about proof in my book, it's about voices that one can then react to in their own way, but not shut down.

Voices that you hear in your head.

What he means is ignore all evidence and argument of course.

 

[fela fan]

How many people are there in China Fela? Are there different regions? Classes? Do these experience things differently?

I don't think you've quite got it yet.

I'm simply offering alternative sources of information about china and chinese people to the standard british media fare. I'm not claiming to be right, not claiming to speak for over a billion people, not claiming that the chinese government are any kind of paragon.

Just offering my own direct experiences to those who might be interested. The british media are not exactly a source of objective analysis, so why place such limitations on me?

 

[JoePolitix]

No one does, That's why you are 10% wasting your time. The reasons behiond this you shall very shortly experience for yourself.

I take it that should read 100%? Well ofcourse - I'm on U75, I've already taken that as a given.

*exits*

 

[butchersapron]

I don't think you've quite got it yet.

I'm simply offering alternative sources of information about china and chinese people to the standard british media fare. I'm not claiming to be right, not claiming to speak for over a billion people, not claiming that the chinese government are any kind of paragon.

Just offering my own direct experiences to those who might be interested. The british media are not exactly a source of objective analysis, so why place such limitations on me?

Sorry, what 'information' have you given? Have you set up a news agency? What?

 

[jæd]

I didn't read the times article, and i don't care whether they were misled or not. I've read so much shit about foreign nations in british media that i have seen first hand that is not true, so i don't pay too much attention any more. They may get the odd thing right, but wading through shit to find it is not my cup of tea mate.

So, instead of a respected publication in the UK, you'd rely on a blog to tell you what's going on...?

Through several discussions i've had with chinese people, it appears to me they have many more topics available for discussion than american people. They are willing to talk about anything. I will add that these discussions do not take place in china, but nevertheless they talk to me about what they do in their country, and i'm prepared to accept what they say as the truth.

Americans will talk about anything as well...

And looking at one or two urbanites, the same can be said for them. If you have the 'wrong' view, just look at the personal attacks that swiftly follow.

They aren't personal attacks. We're just trying to work out your sources for the information about the freedoms the Chinese enjoy. And your sources seem very sketchy...!

 

[fela fan]

No one does, That's why you are 10% wasting your time.

Just 10%? I feel that is just about right, 10% waste, 90% useful.

Not that you would ever waste your time in your efforts to engage me...

 

[butchersapron]

Just 10%? I feel that is just about right, 10% waste, 90% useful.

Not that you would ever waste your time in your efforts to engage me...

Well, 10% is the game - the other 90% is feeling of deflation when it becomes clear what sort of replies you'll be giving. Incoherent, contradictory self indulgent, ignorant, historically bare, methodologially laughable doped up cack and so on.

 

[jæd]

I'm simply offering alternative sources of information about china and chinese people to the standard british media fare. I'm not claiming to be right, not claiming to speak for over a billion people, not claiming that the chinese government are any kind of paragon.

Usually when you offer information, you should at least check that its accurate. Because otherwise you might as well be working for the Chinese Govt...

 

[fela fan]

Well, 10% is the game - the other 90% is feeling of deflation when it becomes clear what sort of replies you'll be giving. Incoherent, contradictory self indulgent, ignorant, historically bare, methodologially laughable doped up cack and so on.

Is that it? Nothing else to add? Go on mate, let it all out, don't hang back.

 

[fela fan]

Usually when you offer information, you should at least check that its accurate. Because otherwise you might as well be working for the Chinese Govt...

I have checked it's accurate, over three years, and from different sources.

You weren't suggesting that i could check its accuracy against anything in the western media were you jaed?

 

[jæd]

You weren't suggesting that i could check its accuracy against anything in the western media were you jaed?

I'd be interested in more of your Chinese way-of-life-facts, certainly. Then they could be checked against other sources. Its how one establishes the credibility of ones sources, by cross-checking.

 

[butchersapron]

I have checked it's accurate, over three years, and from different sources.

You weren't suggesting that i could check its accuracy against anything in the western media were you jaed?

Which sources?

 

[jæd]

There's also some posters who live in China at the moment (there was a very interesting thread a while back on this topic). They could also verify both Fela's, and the Western Media's impressions of China...

 

[fela fan]

There's also some posters who live in China at the moment (there was a very interesting thread a while back on this topic). They could also verify both Fela's, and the Western Media's impressions of China...

There's a very good chance that was my thread jaed. I started it with the express intention of uncovering a clearer picture about the country than the one painted by british, and western, media in general. It was started both to post up my experiences and to find out more from others.

I will add again that i've seen the differences between the thailand of the british media and the thailand of real. And it's a chasm. It gives me good reason to be distrustful of anything they say about other foreign nations.

Often the writers don't even live in the country they're writing about. Other times they go there on a visit so they can compile their report. They speak to a few 'locals' via translators, then write their 'facts' into their reports.

Of course, you'll have to take my word on that, over and above the journos... but that's the beauty of choices innit.

 

[butchersapron]

No, it was Jessiedog's thread. Which sources? Which information?

 

[jæd]

Often the writers don't even live in the country they're writing about. Other times they go there on a visit so they can compile their report. They speak to a few 'locals' via translators, then write their 'facts' into their reports.

But that's what you're doing with China, with the US, and with the UK... Ie, you just posted that you can only have a direct appreciation of a country by living there.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

No, it was Jessiedog's thread. Which sources? Which information?

BTW, where has Jessiedog been? Jessie was a bit of a nationalist, but he at least put a few facts in there on occassion.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

And what, pray-tell, is "the list"...?

...And I travel quite regularly to the US, and people there are appear able to say what they want to say, travel where they want to travel, etc... And from what I see on the UK I still see we have elections, freedom of expression, etc... Have those in China yet...?

About "the list"

http://www.alternet.org/story/23362/

 

[jæd]

About "the list"

http://www.alternet.org/story/23362/

What is about people and the frog in boiling water story...? http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp

When someone includes a badly researched "fact" like that in an article, I start to wonder about the rest of their research and experiences...

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

What is about people and the frog in boiling water story...? http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp

When someone includes a badly researched "fact" like that in an article, I start to wonder about the rest of their research and experiences...

((((Research Frogs))))

 

[fela fan]

But that's what you're doing with China, with the US, and with the UK... Ie, you just posted that you can only have a direct appreciation of a country by living there.

You're mixing me up a bit mate, or i wasn't so clear.

Living in a country obviously gives one a closer picture to what goes on there than merely reporting on it from the outside or making a single visit.

The next best thing might be talking directly with people from that country.

The least best thing would be reading about the country through anglo-american perspectives/biases in their media, and i say that based on my experience with the bullshit written about thailand.

To sum up, i've seen rubbish written in the british media about one country with first hand experience based on me living in that country, and therefore make the conclusion they're liable to do the same thing over other nations. At the least it makes me distrustful and wary of believing what they write.

And i have some credible experience to post up here on the subject of china based both on speaking to chinese people for the last three years, and to westerners who lived or live there. Frequently these talks yield a totally different picture of china to the one painted by western media.

 

[fela fan]

There's also some posters who live in China at the moment (there was a very interesting thread a while back on this topic). They could also verify both Fela's, and the Western Media's impressions of China...

Is this the thread you were thinking of jaed?

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=127671

I know jessiedog started a couple of long-running ones too, but i've run out of search time, and in any case, for those interested and with hours to kill, this old(ish) thread is entertaining reading.

 

[johey24]

Hey FFan

Thanks for this thread. I enjoyed both this and the links to jessiedogs thread posted above. And as I do have hours to kill ... I read his whole thread as well before posting this.

How right you are, even if you do live in Thailand. Kudos to you for sticking it out. Someone should have come to your aid long ago.

You have an open mind, indeed.

We have been living in China since 2005, and as such, think we might have something to add. As first volley in your defence I will simply copy paste an email I sent to my family / friends earlier tonight here below in response to this thread.

QUOTE EMAIL ( proper names replaced with initials in this Quote)


If you want to understand a little more about this country, and look beyond what the media in our democratic West have to say, have a look at these forums. Read what other Westerners living in this country have to say. Also PLEASE note how those thinking like us are being belittled and shot down by people from the West.

Obviously a lot of negative stuff is being chucked around on this forum linked below by people who have never been to this country, people like the majority of "us" out there who do not and can not accept the facts as put out by people like me.... as they are too indoctrinated by what the "free western press" tells them to belive. However, I do believe that, after having read these, you will see that M, I and our thinking, objective colleagues out here are not the only ones believing what we have come to believe: that WE in the West are the ones being lied, lied, lied to at the moment. For a variety of political and economic reasons.

Please note, I say "at the moment". Nobody can deny the bad stuff of the past, nor are any local people nor officials denying them or lying to us or indoctrinating us. For goodness, we teach them (both ordinary people and the "evil" officials), they talk OPENLY about the atrocities of the past in our classes, about the Cultural rev, about Mao ... and they condemn it, openly and kindly as only a Chinese person can do .... a woman even cried about it in my class the other day (and she is a Deputy Mayor of Sxx) ..... they are our friends and we visit their homes and their families ....surely we'd be able to pick up if there was this major, national conspiracy to mislead all foreigners.

We do not see this.

We see only true, unmasked, naively innocent kindness and welcoming. A people who are truly warm and kind. People who want to be friends with you - without ulterior motives. Ulterior motives besides making money, that is .. LOL.

END OF QUOTED EMAIL

Yes, and I know not naming the city she is Deputy Mayor of is an indictment ... but I still suffer a little from a life-long indoctrination ... even though I have not experienced it in 2 years on ground level ....

 

[fela fan]

Hey, good to hear from you johey. I used to be fascinated with china from an early age and actually wanted to go there originally, but because it was pretty difficult to get in there at the time, i came to thailand instead. Never went home...

Indeed, it was only when i came to thailand that i began to discover the big lie that i had been subjected to by british and western media. The brainwashing that goes on is all the more incredible because no-one really knows it's going on! I discovered this naturally enough when my direct experiences were in stark contrast to what the media were saying. At first you wonder what's going on, but the drip drip becomes a flood and then the penny drops.

As for china, it's just that in my work for the last three years we've had many chinese english teachers coming over to our university in northern thailand. I get to know them over the four weeks, or over the year, depending on their course, and what i hear from them describes a completely different country to the one that is written about in the daily liars back in britain. And get this, i have american teachers doing our courses too, and we all discover together that more topics are up for debate than in america!! And that is most certainly the case compared to my home country, britain.

The big problem with the likes of britain is that they just (think they) know. Full stop. Whereas in China my experience is that the people are patriotic, yet have a thirst to learn about the western part of the world. They have open minds, not the closed british minds that i encounter so frequently upon returning for holidays.

I'm more than aware of some of modern day problems there, eg the pollution (same as most of asia though), but i'm impressed at how enthusiastic, optimistic and open the people are, based on the contact i have with them. I started that thread i linked back to in an effort to find out if my limited experience with chinese people represented the norm or not.

Be interested in hearing more about your experiences of the country.