Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Has capitalism become the only ideology?

People's adherence to a political ideology or standpoint is often as much to do with perception as it is to do with actual underlying economic and political realities. For a long time, a majority of people in Britain have perceived that the system they live under - presented to them by all establishment media as "liberal capitalism" - was in their best interests. Whilst this was not necessarily the case, particularly long term, and entailed shutting out the fact that the system has definitely not been in the "best interests" of a significant minority of the population in Britain, let alone in the rest of the world; it has been enough to ensure the acquiescence of a large bulk of the population.

Of course the continuation of this perception depends on the system continuing to "deliver the goods" materially to a majority. Without this, the ideological hegemony is much weaker. The signs are, with looming environmental, resource and financial crises and accompanying war and civil disturbance on a global scale that this period "the long boom" is finally coming to a close. This may see the relative impoverishment of much of the previously "aspiring" class, particularly in Western economies like Britain that are heavily dependent on financial services and debt. I believe this is sometimes called a "J Curve situation".

Pro-capitalist apologists/optimists are reduced to the political equivalent of "something will come up" - i.e. assuming that some leap forward in technological advance will save the day for global finance capitalism. However, it seems extremely unlikely that the multiple crises of energy, food production, climate change and epidemic potentiality will be solved in the necessary timescale. Others of their ilk prefer to bury the heads in the sand, hence climate change deniers, oil reserve optimists, etc etc

The actual, more hard headed ruling class, as opposed to their paid apologists in the commentariat and academia, seem to have decided that the crises are unavoidable and will probably result in major strain to the system on both an economic and political level. Hence the drive by most sections of the global ruling class towards the deepening of the national security state, its extension beyond state boundaries to gain global reach and preparation for suspension of whichever rights and liberties they see fit in a dystopian future. The economic side of this is plainly ever more powerful corporatism (perhaps glimpsed most openly at the moment in the old home of the original "corporatism", Italy)

So the days of the ideological construct known as "liberal capitalism" are indeed numbered, if not already over.

The questions are around what drawing together of global forces will oppose global corporate fascism (for that is what we will soom be facing, make no mistake, however much it will dress itself up as a "global salvation coalition" advocating "necessary sacrifices" of wealth, wellbeing and lives). The current developments in many parts of the world indicate that economic organs of the working class may evolve quickly in the new circumstances - an international(ist) syndicalism to oppose the global prison state. In these circumstances talk of an "opposing political ideology" to capitalism become a little bit of a side discussion to the confrontation of real, actual class forces, neither "liberal capitalism" or "orthodox socialism" describing the reality of either the aims or content of the opposing forces.

It is ironic indeed for capitalist apologists, that just as they celebrate their "absolute ideological hegemony", their "end of history" their doom looms out of the smoke and pollution in the shape of a potentially unified global opposition driven by the realisation that the system of the ruling class is close to hitting the social, ideological, resource and environmental bumpers.
 
To answer the OP it has done it's best to paint itself as the only ideology. What we need is a great empire sapping war that impovrishes America. The blood cost of breaking the US empire would be horrific. Doesn't bear thinking about, especially with an empire that's already shown itself willing to toss nukes around



That sounds like a good way of winning people over: what we need is an horrific, bloody war, preferably nuclear.
 
I'm three years younger than yourself, but history has proven over and over that the people will take only so much before rioting. The idea that the powers that be rule by consent of the mass is one that looks like a joke. Until the rioting starts.



What happens then?
 
That sounds like a good way of winning people over: what we need is an horrific, bloody war, preferably nuclear.


quickly-It's the only way empires tumble. Bloodshed. I don't want it but historically it's the only way empires fall.
 
the comment wasn't intended at a slur at the poster, rather a summing up of the attitudes expressed by the people he was referring to
It isn't a summing up though and deriding any mention of any sort of self-interest with a childish slogan is one of the reasons no-one takes the left seriously any more.
 
It isn't a summing up though and deriding any mention of any sort of self-interest with a childish slogan is one of the reasons no-one takes the left seriously any more.

No, the left isn't taken seriously because they are too busy tearing chunks out of each other to form a coherent, saleable policy to the electorate.

But continue deriding truisms as 'childish'. You'll call me a right-on student next, go on you know you want to
 
No, the left isn't taken seriously because they are too busy tearing chunks out of each other to form a coherent, saleable policy to the electorate.
They haven't got a coherent, saleable policy full stop.
But continue deriding truisms as 'childish'. You'll call me a right-on student next, go on you know you want to
If you go around think glib statements and crap analysis like that are 'truisms' you're an idiot.
 
No, because capitalism isn't an ideology but an economic system.

True if you're speaking of "Capitalism" in the true Marxian sense, but not if you're speaking of one of the various manifestations of capitalism, such as the so-called "free market" capitalism beloved of pundits, businessmen, politicians and others with little grasp on reality beyond the fact that money talks.
 
Yes option rather than alternative.



Right this gets to the nub of my question. Capitalist ideology is now so engrained within people through indoctrination that other options can't be perceived.
Variants of capitalist ideology (I still see "belief" as being a more accurate description than "ideology") are ingrained, but fortunately some people don't wish to/can't accept their primacy. Most usually it's those who benefit least who struggle against it the most.
Interestingly this comes down again to the idea that capitalism has sowed the seeds of its own destruction, by depleting the raw materials needed.
Unless some brave capitalist sponsors matter conversion research (otherwise known as "alchemy" :)), then I believe that capitalism will indeed be the cause of it's own demise. I'm not saying we'll revert to a barter economy, but that mass-production, at current scales, will no longer exist.
If this turns out to be the case haven't the capitalists also scuppered any future form of industrial based socialism.
Of the mass-production sort, anyway. I still see room for "cottage industry"-scale industrial activity, and possibly the fulfillment of Lester Bangs's (hilarious in the 1970s) barbiturate dream of people mining old landfill sites for metals to re-smelt etc.
 
A mixed economy is the best of both. The long term, five plus years, of a socialist economy. Together with the innovation & dynamism of the capitalist economy. What we currently have is the public sector existing for the benefit of the private sector. Governments passing legislation allowing the private to use the public sector to generate profits for the benefit of their shareholders. Who in the current financial environment are very likely to be non UK tax domiciled. The controlled economy without giving its people a chance to create private wealth through their own innovation & risk results in the "they pretend to pay me I pretend to work" - quote form a state worker in Cuba, economy that lead to the destruction of the communist states. Apart from those that took to worse from both systems, the political control of an authoritarian socialists state together with the turbo capitalism of the western economies.

Yep, five and ten-year plans may sound a bit "Communistic", but they certainly work in terms of analysing need and targeting resources over the medium term, whereas our current dominant economic mode is predicated on short-term gain, short-term investment and short-term planning.
 
Of the mass-production sort, anyway. I still see room for "cottage industry"-scale industrial activity, and possibly the fulfillment of Lester Bangs's (hilarious in the 1970s) barbiturate dream of people mining old landfill sites for metals to re-smelt etc.

Been going on in the developing (read majority) world for years.
 
Well of course society has and does undergo massive changes. So maybe we shouldn't bother addressing the question. Capitalism will sow the seeds of it's own destruction as history will show.

Capitalism, history suggests, has a strong chance that it will be replaced as an economic mode of production at some point.

History certainly does suggest that economic modes to not remain indefinitely static.

The ideologies that have dominated Capitalism from its inception to now have changed considerably. From low state intervention ideologies of the Victorians to a massive welfare state based mixed economic system type ideologies in the western world, especially post WW2.
 
Yep, five and ten-year plans may sound a bit "Communistic", but they certainly work in terms of analysing need and targeting resources over the medium term, whereas our current dominant economic mode is predicated on short-term gain, short-term investment and short-term planning.

More than the next six months until the half yearly results come out. But for an economy to be successful you have to offer a profit motive, which they can keep after paying a proportion in taxation, to the individual.
 
People's adherence to a political ideology or standpoint is often as much to do with perception as it is to do with actual underlying economic and political realities. For a long time, a majority of people in Britain have perceived that the system they live under - presented to them by all establishment media as "liberal capitalism" - was in their best interests. Whilst this was not necessarily the case, particularly long term, and entailed shutting out the fact that the system has definitely not been in the "best interests" of a significant minority of the population in Britain, let alone in the rest of the world; it has been enough to ensure the acquiescence of a large bulk of the population.

I think it's all to do with perception rather than economic, political or social realities. If you have the means to indoctrinate people daily through the various mediums, and to catch them early through schooling, then you have a captive audience.

Of course the continuation of this perception depends on the system continuing to "deliver the goods" materially to a majority. Without this, the ideological hegemony is much weaker. The signs are, with looming environmental, resource and financial crises and accompanying war and civil disturbance on a global scale that this period "the long boom" is finally coming to a close. This may see the relative impoverishment of much of the previously "aspiring" class, particularly in Western economies like Britain that are heavily dependent on financial services and debt. I believe this is sometimes called a "J Curve situation".

I'm not convinced on this point. Capitalist ideology is such that wars, rationing and even curtailing of civil liberties have been explained away as being necessary in the long term.

Pro-capitalist apologists/optimists are reduced to the political equivalent of "something will come up" - i.e. assuming that some leap forward in technological advance will save the day for global finance capitalism. However, it seems extremely unlikely that the multiple crises of energy, food production, climate change and epidemic potentiality will be solved in the necessary timescale. Others of their ilk prefer to bury the heads in the sand, hence climate change deniers, oil reserve optimists, etc etc

Again it's already being explained away as something we are all responsible for and so the 'solutions' are presented as individual lifestyle choices. Don't forget to check your carbon footprint!

The actual, more hard headed ruling class, as opposed to their paid apologists in the commentariat and academia, seem to have decided that the crises are unavoidable and will probably result in major strain to the system on both an economic and political level. Hence the drive by most sections of the global ruling class towards the deepening of the national security state, its extension beyond state boundaries to gain global reach and preparation for suspension of whichever rights and liberties they see fit in a dystopian future. The economic side of this is plainly ever more powerful corporatism (perhaps glimpsed most openly at the moment in the old home of the original "corporatism", Italy)

I agree, but again it's being presented in such a way that it is perceived as a necessary inconvenience to overcome short term problems like 'terrorism' or 'anti-social behaviour'. Or whatever the bogeyman is this week.

So the days of the ideological construct known as "liberal capitalism" are indeed numbered, if not already over.

Sorry but this comes across as wishful thinking. The ideological construct is still very much intact. That you wish it wasn't doesn't make it so.

The questions are around what drawing together of global forces will oppose global corporate fascism (for that is what we will soom be facing, make no mistake, however much it will dress itself up as a "global salvation coalition" advocating "necessary sacrifices" of wealth, wellbeing and lives). The current developments in many parts of the world indicate that economic organs of the working class may evolve quickly in the new circumstances - an international(ist) syndicalism to oppose the global prison state. In these circumstances talk of an "opposing political ideology" to capitalism become a little bit of a side discussion to the confrontation of real, actual class forces, neither "liberal capitalism" or "orthodox socialism" describing the reality of either the aims or content of the opposing forces.

"international(ist) syndicalism"?? Surely syndicalism was a response to particular circumstances within an industrial based capitalist society.

It is ironic indeed for capitalist apologists, that just as they celebrate their "absolute ideological hegemony", their "end of history" their doom looms out of the smoke and pollution in the shape of a potentially unified global opposition driven by the realisation that the system of the ruling class is close to hitting the social, ideological, resource and environmental bumpers.

So we should all just sit back and enjoy the ride then?
 
Capitalism, history suggests, has a strong chance that it will be replaced as an economic mode of production at some point.

History certainly does suggest that economic modes to not remain indefinitely static.

The ideologies that have dominated Capitalism from its inception to now have changed considerably. From low state intervention ideologies of the Victorians to a massive welfare state based mixed economic system type ideologies in the western world, especially post WW2.

I wouldn't call them ideologies. They are economic variants that have been chosen within the ideological framework of capitalism.
 
I wouldn't call them ideologies. They are economic variants that have been chosen within the ideological framework of capitalism.

Then you do not understand what an ideology is.


e.g liberalism, conservatism, socialism, social democrats even.

You have it wrong headed - Capitalism is an economic system not an ideology.
 
I remember siting on a seat along the edgware road at the time of the petrol blockade and thinking all them expense motors are fuck all use without petrol.captialism as one big crisis on its hands when the oil runs out ,not in ours or our childrens time but happen it will.could bio fuel be the answer not if you belief the reports that it as pushed up the cost of food.one thing those at the bottom will have better skills to survive:D
 
Then you do not understand what an ideology is.


e.g liberalism, conservatism, socialism, social democrats even.

You have it wrong headed - Capitalism is an economic system not an ideology.

There are different definitions of ideology. I tried to explain mine earlier: 2.Ideology is the collection of ideas that give shape to the society created by the mode of production. Shapes the institutions etc.

So yes I agree capitalism is an economic system, a mode of production. But capitalist ideology is the accompanying set of ideas that shape the society, and ensure adherence to the rules set by the capitalists. For example the rule of law.
 
These things ebb and flow. The disillusion with socialist ideas comes with a general small c return to conservative ideas. It'll change.
We've been on a downard slope for 30 continual years, now - that's an unprecedented 30 years of the rightwing being in uninterrupted ascendancy. I remember people saying "it'll pass" back in the 80s - it didn't. It continued and grew worse tyhroughout the 80s, through the 90s right up to the present day. We now haev the dismal situation where the only "alternatives" catchingt he popular mood are obscurantist ideologies like religious fundamentalism, far-right movements and a wierd neo-puritanist environmentalism that frankly scares the shit out of me.

It's over. It's fucked. I can see no hope - not even a glimmer - of any future of progressive political movements.

PS: Watching Dr Who the other evening made me think. It struck me that - were it looking like global capitalism was about to be overthrown - the ruling-class fuckers would probaly set off the nukes and blow the planet fromt he cosmos rather than loose their power and be held accountabale for the crimes committed under capitalism.
 
and a wierd neo-puritanist environmentalism that frankly scares the shit out of me.


Sorry have I missed something. :confused: Of course environmentalism could develop in unpleasant ways but there is no necessity for it do so?

"Puritan" could mean any economic system which is less focussed on continuously developing consumerism. So by comparison environmentalism would tend to be "Puritan" but in other less narrowly resource-based ways it could be less puritan.

"Weird" - what exactly do you mean? :confused:
 
There are different definitions of ideology. I tried to explain mine earlier: 2.Ideology is the collection of ideas that give shape to the society created by the mode of production. Shapes the institutions etc.

So yes I agree capitalism is an economic system, a mode of production. But capitalist ideology is the accompanying set of ideas that shape the society, and ensure adherence to the rules set by the capitalists. For example the rule of law.

I'm not sure we can go much further because in my view capitalism is NOT an ideology.
 
Even asssuming that there was such a thing as capitalist ideology (as opposed to ideologies that favour capitalism) surely the past few decades demonstrate that capitalism can contain any ideology that purports to challenge it. People don't accept capitalism due to being subjected to propaganda but because they see no convincing alternative, and because all attempts so far to systematically abolish capitalism have turned out to be, on the whole, worse (or at least worse than the economically advanced countries.)
 
Well if you want to explain what ideology means to you, go ahead. If not, no problem.

I have already been pretty clear I think

Capitalism = an economic system we currently live within.

Ideology = such things as anarchism, conservatism, liberalism, socialism, fascism etc etc etc - and of those some are supportive ideologies to capitalist economics etc and some aren't.


Do you argue for the sake of it?
 
I'm not convinced on this point. Capitalist ideology is such that wars, rationing and even curtailing of civil liberties have been explained away as being necessary in the long term.

And this will be tried again. However, what has changed is that some crucial ideological props and fastenings (class deference, religious observance, legalism, "respect for authority") have been fatally eroded in many Western societies, particularly Britain - ironically in large part by the operation and needs of market capitalism itself! This may mean that the "necessary sacrifices" are much more strongly questioned and challenged - and we must not forget that this happened - to some extent - even when these props were much stronger in the two Twentieth Century World Wars.



Again it's already being explained away as something we are all responsible for and so the 'solutions' are presented as individual lifestyle choices. Don't forget to check your carbon footprint!

And look at how much questioning and resistance there is to this approach - particularly when measures are seen as disguised and dishonest revenue raising measures!






Sorry but this comes across as wishful thinking. The ideological construct is still very much intact. That you wish it wasn't doesn't make it so.

I think on the contrary that neo-conservativism can be seen as a last gasp attempt of defenders of their priveleged position who know that the ideological battle is increasingly seen as hogwash by many in the West, so they present the "defence of the West" as a "pragmatic battle" to defend a lesser evil - a lesser evil that some of them spent their earlier years attacking as Trots. That such unprincipled scum can rise to the top of the West and even lead and define it for a period is a signal of the ideological decay of the system and increasing desperation in the face of threats that the real ruling class cannot "personalise" into nasty terrorists or regimes that can be bombed to solve problems.



"international(ist) syndicalism"?? Surely syndicalism was a response to particular circumstances within an industrial based capitalist society.

Well, the key idea is "economic organisations" of the working class. I do not foresee some carbon copy of early 20th Century syndicalism. We may see mass unions, assemblies, councils or other new forms developing - as a response to "particular circumstances" within a global "industrial based capitalist society". What is clear is that there will be resistance and self defence, and any close examination of China for example will show that the state has a major and increasing battle to prevent this resistance and self defence from flourishing there. It is the difference between this process and an international process of ideological/party formation that I was posing - the latter is not likely at the current time as it would be historical cart before a historical horse!



So we should all just sit back and enjoy the ride then?

Well, no. We should make ourselves useful to the development of fighting organisations within, across and around workplaces, either at home or abroad, wherever the conditions are right. Political activity, whilst useful and necessary (if done properly!) should be secondary to this major task.
 
Back
Top Bottom