Harry Potter!!!!!!1

[bluestreak]

true enough sam, but there are few other fantasy books that people outside the fantasy community get so fanboy about, iyswim. i can see the similarity to the blyton stuff too. thing is, like all authors, she's a product of her influences, i wouldn't even say plagiarism is anything she's been involved with, and as a childrens' writer she doesn't need to be a great writer-as-artist. i personally find her prose clunky and the early themes extremely simplistic. but i like the way she has made them darker and more complex. i don't think her writing has gotten any better though, but i'm a fan of people like will self and iain sinclair...

i agree with what you say on her emphasis though, that's certainly a good thing.

 

[spanglechick]

I am looking forward to it. The book, that is.

The film I'm not so fussed about - I will go (without M'sO who refuses) but it's not a tent-pole in my summer in the way the book unashamedly is.

I bought the fourth book when that came out, but couldn't get into it - so one wet half term I bought the other three and read the lot. And was converted.

See - the problem with trying to recomment Harry Potter is the first two books are just pretty badly written. They're fun - in a kind of Roald Dahl meets Enid Blyton way - but the writing is pretty poor.

And then, imo, with Prizoner of Azkaban it starts getting better. The plot becomes complex and exciting, the characterisation takes off and I finsihed it thinking "cool as fuck - where's the next one?".

which is also fun, and dark - i mean sod it, a schoolboy is murdered at the end, and a 14 year old boy has to return his body to his father who then proceeds to grieve all over him. It's raw and uncomfortable - great stuff.

Book five is a wee bit too political and driven by plot complexities for me - but book six was really great - it made me cry and made me angry, and damn right I want to know how she wraps the whole thing up. I've been looking forward to the last book since february half term 1999, iirc, so yes - i'm excited.

there's no way that rowling can be compared to say Philip Pullman in terms of skill - she's nowhere near being classed as literature - and yet, much as i found the "His Dark Materials" trilogy fascinating and satisfying and impressive, they didn't make me excited, or emotionally involved like The Potter books have.

Just for the record, btw, i'd class myself as not liking fantasy as a genre...

 

[spanglechick]

I'm looking forward to it about as much as having a tooth out.

I work at a branch of a large chain of bookstore and for some unknown, and rather stupid, reason decided a couple of months ago to put myself forward to work the midnight opening *smacks forehead*

Actually, all I really begrudge is having to wear the pathetically stupid t-shirt they are giving us. If I'd have wanted to wear a uniform I wouldn't have applied for that job in the first place (I don't like uniforms).

I might ebay it though afterwards

if you don't ebay it, can i have it, please? [/cheeky]

 

[ymu]

^^ Agree with all of that.



(Spanglechick, if I'm too slow to use ^^)

E2A: Doh! the first post

 

[Iam]

I do like quite a bit of fantasy. And Potter's alright, timewasting entertainment reading in and along with that sort of thing. Third and Fourth are the best, but none of it's great literature.

I dunno about looking forward to the last book, but I'll read it for sure.

 

[Dubversion]

No, seriously where have I said that? I haven't. I said here come the pseudo literati. I didn't say who I meant but you and dub (and to a certain extent OU though I think he was just tarting) jumped ont he comment. I've never said no-one's allowed to think something is shit but by the same token I'm allowed to think that the same offenders who trot out he same seemingly affected opinions are psuedo's who think belittling something so popular makes them somehow superior There are other people saying they don't like it but they manage it say it in a way which doesn't seem to suggest that people who do like it are some kind of intellectually challenged fish food.

and in this post you confirm EVERYTHING i've accused you of.

apparently i don't have opinions, i have 'seemingly affected opinions'. Do I? Really? How do you know?

and who did i belittle? did i mention the people who like the books? No i didn't, i criticised the books, and the books only.

Your reaction says everything about your own chippiness, arrogance (ie "if someone disagrees with me, it must be stance rather than an honest opinion") and generally fairly noxious attitudes and precisely nothing about my genuine opinions of these books.

I rest my fucking case

 

[scifisam]

true enough sam, but there are few other fantasy books that people outside the fantasy community get so fanboy about, iyswim. i can see the similarity to the blyton stuff too. thing is, like all authors, she's a product of her influences, i wouldn't even say plagiarism is anything she's been involved with, and as a childrens' writer she doesn't need to be a great writer-as-artist. i personally find her prose clunky and the early themes extremely simplistic. but i like the way she has made them darker and more complex. i don't think her writing has gotten any better though, but i'm a fan of people like will self and iain sinclair...

i agree with what you say on her emphasis though, that's certainly a good thing.

I guess I just don't care if someone's fanatical about something that I don't like, really. I don't like drum 'n' bass, but I'm not going to go into the music forum and shit all over any thread which is about drum 'n' bass. I really, really, really hate beatboxing and freestyling, but will just stay out of conversations about it, and leave the room if people start doing it. Football's not my thing to watch (only to play), but I can cope with the football season.

I'd rather spend my time on the things I do like.

 

[Orang Utan]

I often prefer talking about things I don't like (on message boards)

 

[madzone]

I guess I just don't care if someone's fanatical about something that I don't like, really. I don't like drum 'n' bass, but I'm not going to go into the music forum and shit all over any thread which is about drum 'n' bass. I really, really, really hate beatboxing and freestyling, but will just stay out of conversations about it, and leave the room if people start doing it. Football's not my thing to watch (only to play), but I can cope with the football season.

I'd rather spend my time on the things I do like.

Far too sensible Sam

 

[madzone]

I often prefer talking about things I don't like (on message boards)

That's interesting. Tell me about your childhood.

 

[blinky_bill]

There are people who think harry potter has some kind of alchemical subtext. Someone wrote something about it here http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.9docs/16-9pg34.html.

I've not read the books so I can't comment, but it makes them look quite interesting to me.

 

[Orang Utan]

That's interesting. Tell me about your childhood.

I don't think it's weird - people are usually far more eloquent ripping the shit out of things than they are praising them. Plus, there are far more shit things about than good things, so it's inevitable.

 

[madzone]

Phew! Some people would have read that and thought I was being sarky, bullying, belittling... thank fuck you've got a sense of humour

 

[onemonkey]

That's interesting. Tell me about your childhood.

i've heard that he was a very very naughty boy

 

[fogbat]

There are people who think harry potter has some kind of alchemical subtext. Someone wrote something about it here http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.9docs/16-9pg34.html.

I've not read the books so I can't comment, but it makes them look quite interesting to me.

Christ.

There aren't the words to criticise that enough.

 

[madzone]

Christ.

There aren't the words to criticise that enough.

I'm with you on that one

 

[T & P]

They're kiddies' books ffs. They're not meant to be outstanding literary works- children's books seldom are.

They're not great, they're not awful. If anything if they are a victim of their own success. It's only because many adults have taken a liking to them that the books are subject to such scrutiny.

I suspect 99% of all children's books would turn out to be shite if adults decided to read them and discuss them to the extent the Harry Potter series has.

The books have managed to get scores of larded up, video-console obsessed children to read again and for that alone they deserve credit.

 

[bellator]

They're kiddies' books ffs. They're not meant to be outstanding literary works- children's books seldom are.

They're not great, they're not awful. If anything if they are a victim of their own success. It's only because many adults have taken a liking to them that the books are subject to such scrutiny.

I suspect 99% of all children's books would turn out to be shite if adults decided to read them and discuss them to the extent the Harry Potter series has.

The books have managed to get scores of larded up, video-console obsessed children to read again and for that alone they deserve credit.

Thank you!!!!
Sense at last

 

[Reno]

I don't think it's weird - people are usually far more eloquent ripping the shit out of things than they are praising them. Plus, there are far more shit things about than good things, so it's inevitable.

It's easier to tear something down than to stand up for something. Ripping something populist to shreds makes people feel like they are idiosyncratic and that they have refined taste. Praising something puts you in a more vulnerable position because you put your heart on your sleeve. Writing why you are passionate about something requires more genuine articulacy than a glib put down.

 

[Maltin]

ditto.

nothing to do with what kind of books they are - there are some fab kids books - but because they're formulaic, poorly written, uninspiring pieces of crap

So you've read 3 chapters of one book of a 7 book series, and you're some kind of expert

ETA: I see you managed more than 3 chapters, so was it 4 chapters then to give you great wisdom?

 

[bellator]

I do wish that people would just chill out and realise "It's just a book"
God knows how much money she made etc.....And I think she knows she aint another Jane Austin. It's a childrens book and at a push an adult one to boot. Who cares?? I enjoy it and I enjoy the films too - sorry but I do!
Goodnight!!

 

[The Groke]

They're kiddies' books ffs. They're not meant to be outstanding literary works- children's books seldom are.

Why can't they be though?

Why shouldn't a children's book be able to stand up to the same sort of critique normally applied to an "adult" book?

Obviously by their very nature, a book written with younger children or teens in mind cannot always be as complex and demanding as literature written for older readers or contain the same adult themes and situations and nor should they, but it doesn't mean they can't be well written and challenging.

Checkout things like the Alan Garner books, or Phil Pulman or the Earthsea trilogy for fantasy books which are similar in nature but far superior to the Potter series.

I have actually read the first five Harry Potter books, mainly to kill time in situations not really conducive to "real reading" such as in airports or tube journeys etc.

They are "ok" I suppose, but I shan't be bothering with the last two and I agree with most of the criticisms levelled at them on this thread

I do agree that in this day and age, a series which does encourage kids who would not usually pick up a book to start reading is undeniably a good thing, but it would be nice to know that Harry Potter was merely a gateway to tempt kids to bigger and better things.

 

[jæd]

I suspect 99% of all children's books would turn out to be shite if adults decided to read them and discuss them to the extent the Harry Potter series has.

But thats the thing... They're books for *kids*, not adults. So adults going on about them as if they are literature is

 

[madzone]

But thats the thing... They're books for *kids*, not adults. So adults going on about them as if they are literature is

Innit. And why does something have to be worthy to be enjoyable? Whatever the literary standard of them they've captured the imagination of millions of children and adults. Jeez, why can't we just have some fun?