happiness must be the objective...

[fela fan]

That happiness does not necessarily mean that leadership is benevolent or good, that it could be just as evil as the leaders we have today. A slave owner who treats his slaves well, keeps them happy is still a slave owner, and the people are still slaves, despite being happy.

Someone who is ignorant of personal freedom may well be happy, and so fulfil your objective but I wouldn't say that's a good life.

Yeah, well none of this is really to do with the main thrust of this thread. You're bringing into the picture imaginary situations where there is no need to. Either we get leaders exploiting our fears and misery, or we get leaders responding to our happiness in different ways. They need our votes. If we're all happy, and we vote them in and they go on their crime spree, then they're not reflecting our will, and we will evict them from office. They will learn fast.

Instead they have at their disposal the tools to downpress us with fear, debt, and marketing. If we resisted, then the ball would suddenly be in our court, to put it in tennis terms.

 

[fela fan]

And you think this is a good thing? That poor people who are religious just carry on being poor and happy because their faith sustains them?

No i don't think it's a good thing.

My understanding of religious people is that they don't live their lives by faith. Only people who follow organised religions live by faith... which inevitably leads to their exploitation.

Why are you bringing in new dimensions and imaginary contexts to my argument? You're displacing it. You've hardly said anything that i can really disagree with, yet you appear to be denying my argument put forth in the OP!

 

[fela fan]

fela there are at least a dozen reports on happiness over the last decade or so which make the same point and it's true whether theuy follow scripture or not, the happiness stemming from knowledge of belonging to a wider group who share the same outlook etc.

I derive a considerable amount of my happiness from seeing others happy. I belong to the group your reports are discovering: the happy group. If i see a non-member of this wide group of people, i do my best to help them join up...

And taking your reports somewhat more literally, i hope they don't mean that happiness in people is dependent on others. Happiness must come from within first and foremost. Only in that way can my OP become reality, in that the leaders will have to change because the default in the population - of democracies - is happiness, not fear.

 

[Cid]

No i don't think it's a good thing.

My understanding of religious people is that they don't live their lives by faith. Only people who follow organised religions live by faith... which inevitably leads to their exploitation.

Why are you bringing in new dimensions and imaginary contexts to my argument? You're displacing it. You've hardly said anything that i can really disagree with, yet you appear to be denying my argument put forth in the OP!

Quite a lot of religious people follow organised religions you know...

 

[fela fan]

Quite a lot of religious people follow organised religions you know...

Perhaps i should have said 'religious'.

Hope that makes clearer what i was saying. Mainly that we need not allow organised religion to hijack all meanings of the words 'religious'.

 

[Gromit]

Perhaps you should have said spiritual

 

[fela fan]

Perhaps you should have said spiritual

Maybe, but then that word carries a lot of (often) negative connotations and therefore has different meanings to different people. It's a problem, words.

I just mean those that feel religious, but follow no organised religion.

 

[Cheesypoof]

But did not coke deliver you into your current state? Would you have found it if you'd never done drugs?

okay lots of questions. Well, I've felt pretty contented with or without them, so drugs were always an outlet of fun for the imagination. I'm glad I did them, I met all my friends through drugs and had some amazing experiences

IAre drugs not a vehicle into a better life? Is that not why there is such a fear of drugs on the part of those in leadership?

I dont think they are an 'outlet to a better life' for me personally. Sobriety is. I reckon leaders are scared of drugs because of the potential damage of really hard drugs on society. Thats why they put the label on all drugs

And if there were millions of happier souls like you, then would not the leadership we have to suffer have to change to mirror the new national consciousness?

i dont think about politics much, but theres a higher spiritual power force of good at work in the world right now. if there were more happier souls around, the leadership would definitely have to change. I'm hoping Barack Obama's leadership will reflect such change which i think is now happening