Hands Off Gaza Protest, Sat 3 Jan

[Taxamo Welf]

No they are not, aside from the exercise of specific, limited powers they have no more recourse to force than any other person.

Hanging around to argue the point with them is a) not a bright idea and b) confuses the whole point that anarchists try and make about the police.

 

[untethered]

No they are not, aside from the exercise of specific, limited powers they have no more recourse to force than any other person.

Well obviously, apart from all the dozens of differences and exceptions, the rights and duties of police officers are identical to those of ordinary citizens.

 

[winjer]

Hanging around to argue the point with them is a) not a bright idea

Where did I suggest any such thing?

 

[winjer]

Well obviously, apart from all the dozens of differences and exceptions, the rights and duties of police officers are identical to those of ordinary citizens.

No, aside from very limited circumstances it's entirely down to Section 3 of the Criminal Law Act 1967, which applies equally to everybody.

 

[untethered]

No, aside from very limited circumstances it's entirely down to Section 3 of the Criminal Law Act 1967, which applies equally to everybody.

The point you seem to be missing by a very large margin is that the duties of a police officer are very different from those of the ordinary citizen.

The police officer has a duty to maintain the peace. They have a duty to prevent and detect crime and to apprehend suspects. In many instances of their duty, they are obliged to get involved in situations where force may be necessary.

This is a very different thing from a general citizen's right to use force in self defence where necessary.

Obvious example: citizens do not have a duty to control public order situations and would not be entitled to claim a right to use force in so doing.

 

[lovelondon]

The point you seem to be missing by a very large margin is that the duties of a police officer are very different from those of the ordinary citizen.

The police officer has a duty to maintain the peace. They have a duty to prevent and detect crime and to apprehend suspects. In many instances of their duty, they are obliged to get involved in situations where force may be necessary.

This is a very different thing from a general citizen's right to use force in self defence where necessary.

Obvious example: citizens do not have a duty to control public order situations and would not be entitled to claim a right to use force in so doing.

what about the right to citizens arrest. Does that have restrictions on it?
It would be pretty useless if it did

 

[untethered]

what about the right to citizens arrest. Does that have restrictions on it?

Everything has restrictions on it, that is, is subject to regulation. Citizens performing arrests need to be very careful that they are entitled to make an arrest (something which a police officer is generally more clued up about), that they only use reasonable force and that they hand over the detainee to the police as soon as possible so that they aren't accused of false imprisonment.

It would be pretty useless if it did

Some people come to that conclusion. Personally, I'd rather maintain the current situation that the police generally apprehend suspects and the public call upon them to do so except where exceptionally necessary otherwise.

 

[winjer]

And no, in 2002 they were very effective, they trapped people in a cordon very quickly and kept them there. There was no repeat of the previous years rioting, and there never has been.

Where was this cordon? Or are you still talking about 2001, Oxford Circus?

A quick reminder:

1999 - "the party line" - RTS attempt to fill the circle line in solidarity with tube workers, police take them express to Clapham for the cannabisfest.
2000 - "guerrilla gardening" - RTS dig up parliament square, Turkish Stalinists graf the cenotaph.
2001 - "mayday monopoly" - Swappies and liberals detained at Oxford Circus, much rioting elsewhere.
2002 - "mayfair mayday" - Womble7 trial, decentralised stuff all over, cops attack street party in Soho in the evening, most people go on TUC march.
2003 - "weapons of mass construction" - some decentralised stuff, main groups corralled and marched to Traf Sq to join the TUC, which had been hijacked by STWC.

Ok, turning coaches back might have happened to both, but if 'Fairford was a repeat of tactics used in the miners' strike' i missed the bit where the police charged into a peaceful crowd on horseback, taped £50 notes behind their shields, beat people half to death...

Er, you said Fairford involved new tactics, I pointed out turning coaches back was not a new idea, I didn't claim it was a repeat of all the tactics.

you are telling me there has been no overhaul in public order policing since the 1980's?

Yes, very little has changed on the ground, command structure has been revised, tactical advisers now often have de facto command.

 

[winjer]

The police officer has a duty to maintain the peace.

All citizens are under a duty to maintain the peace, though for a citizen who is not also a constable this is regarded as a "duty of imperfect obligation" - cf. Lord Diplock, Albert v Lavin [1982] 74 Cr App Rep 150

Obvious example: citizens do not have a duty to control public order situations and would not be entitled to claim a right to use force in so doing.

Entirely untrue, it can even be a common law offence not to cf. R v Brown (1841) 1 C & Mar 314, R v Sherlock (1866) LR 1 CCR 20, R v Waugh [1976] TLR 1/10.

 

[winjer]

what about the right to citizens arrest. Does that have restrictions on it? It would be pretty useless if it did

Yes, it's very restrictive, police have a much wider power of arrest, in fact since the passing of the Criminal Justice & Immigration Act 2008, you're arguably better off legally using force in self-defence than trying to make a citizen's arrest.

 

[violetdingo]

Distressing film opf Gaza http://sabbah.blip.tv/#1644310 < Please do not look if easily upset. This is very real and horrific film of the events. Sorry if repost (busy innit?!)

 

[cantsin]

gonna break my "no posting when a bit pissed "rule, but just heard on news 24 (BBC ) that of the 700 palestinians now killed in gaza over the last fortnight , over 200 were children .

To all the fuckwits wanting to talk about "hamas"/ " Israels need to defend itself / rockets targetted at Israel civilians " / we need to just march peacefully from A to fucking B again comrades + do you wanna buy a paper ( MC5 you UTTER SWP TWAT!!!!! ) + any div still retaining a grain of hope in Obamafarce...

just fuck off basically

 

[october_lost]

Good post