Hamas Win so what now

[Sasaferrato]

Most obviously the state of Israel. One of my relatives, during his national service, had to pick up messy little bits of people who were blown up by Prime Minister Begin in his terrorist days. 91 people were killed at the King David Hotel.

My father was in the King David hotel shortly before it was blown up, curiously, it didn't change his view of the Israelis, whom he admired greatly.

 

[Sasaferrato]

if that murder also kills 7 or 15 other people in the process there is little difference. except of course that one state is sanctioned by the us goveremnt and one isn't...

I think you're making a little free with the word 'murder' here Garf. Slaughtering terrorist filth isn't murder.

 

[nino_savatte]

What do you expect hamas to cook up?

I don't expect them to cook up much at all. Now go ahead and accuse me of something you ought not accuse me of.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

This is the classic case of the opposition comming to power and having to run things when they are used to agitating. I'm guessing they'll be a destabilizing influence for a while and then they'll become as bloated and corrupt as Fatah. They'll be no change in the long run.

 

[Joe]

I don't expect them to cook up much at all. Now go ahead and accuse me of something you ought not accuse me of.

when was the last hamas attack on israel?

 

[Sasaferrato]

when was the last hamas attack on israel?

Last week.

 

[Joe]

Last week.

yeah I can't imagine hamas would cook up anything nino

being the little darlings they are

 

[moono]

Last week.

Linky ?

 

[nino_savatte]

when was the last hamas attack on israel?

They may just surprise us all...not with an attack btw.

 

[happie chappie]

What happens now? Well, Hamas won't "formally" change its charter calling for the destruction of Israel, and Israel won't "formally" negotiate with what it sees as terrorists. Both standpoints are, to a large extent, for public consumption.

Meanwhile, behind the scenes, there will be contact between the two sides, perhaps not face-to-face - although this is not impossible - but more likely between intermediaries. One person who keeps cropping up in this regard is Alistair Crooke, a former MI6 agent and now the EU Special Envoy to the Middle East. Rumour has it that he's been active in brokering cease-fires in the past, and was on Newsnight earlier this week talking about the election in the PA. It's likely that the current Hamas ceasefire was facilitated behind-the-scenes by Crooke, or someone of his ilk.

Interestingly, Mossad is rumoured to have a special section called Cosmos which maintains contact and conducts negotiations with countries and organisations that Israel does not have diplomatic relations and/or any form of "official" contact with. It's reasonable to assume that Hamas would have a similar capacity, or could find someone to fulfill this role.

The key issue is that much of what's said by the main protagonists on all sides is designed to conceal, rather than reveal, the truth, and so is probably not worth getting too upset about.

Happie Chappie

 

[Joe]

They may just surprise us all...not with an attack btw.

You place your faith in a terrorist organisation but fail to put this same trust in Israel.... strange.

 

[TAE]

Hamas have never been in power before. Who knows what they might do now?!

It could be good, it could be bad.

 

[Sasaferrato]

What happens now? Well, Hamas won't "formally" change its charter calling for the destruction of Israel, and Israel won't "formally" negotiate with what it sees as terrorists. Both standpoints are, to a large extent, for public consumption.

Meanwhile, behind the scenes, there will be contact between the two sides, perhaps not face-to-face - although this is not impossible - but more likely between intermediaries. One person who keeps cropping up in this regard is Alistair Crooke, a former MI6 agent and now the EU Special Envoy to the Middle East. Rumour has it that he's been active in brokering cease-fires in the past, and was on Newsnight earlier this week talking about the election in the PA. It's likely that the current Hamas ceasefire was facilitated behind-the-scenes by Crooke, or someone of his ilk.

Interestingly, Mossad is rumoured to have a special section called Cosmos which maintains contact and conducts negotiations with countries and organisations that Israel does not have diplomatic relations and/or any form of "official" contact with. It's reasonable to assume that Hamas would have a similar capacity, or could find someone to fulfill this role.

The key issue is that much of what's said by the main protagonists on all sides is designed to conceal, rather than reveal, the truth, and so is probably not worth getting too upset about.

Happie Chappie

No. Our gutless and mendacious government did talk with terrorists, and did capitulate. I really don't see Israel doing this. Hamas statements tonight are effectively a declaration of war on Israel. A foolish move.

 

[nino_savatte]

You place your faith in a terrorist organisation but fail to put this same trust in Israel.... strange.

No, I'm a pragmatist. How about you? Besides, who's got the nuclear weapons?

 

[big footed fred]

is this the start of improved situations for the palestinians, the culmination of the next intafada? Will things all go down hill from here?

I understand Israel won't speak to them and the US is considering stopping of reducing it's aid package.
There is bugger all chance that this will do any good at all. I can see blood and guts by the skip load before long.

 

[laptop]

It's reasonable to assume that Hamas would have a similar capacity, or could find someone to fulfill this role.

And even if they don't, the talk seems to be of putting together a government of Palestinian national unity.

So in one sense it could be like the Six Counties - you'd have Israel (Paisley) sat there noisily not talking to Hamas (the Shinners) while managing to negotiate with the government via its Fatah members (SDLP).

But who's Mo Mowlam in this picture?

And neither side has ruled out direct communication over the things that make life work, like telephones and electricity - though water is a bit of a bigger problem.

 

[rogue yam]

What I expect to see from the Palestinians is more of the same. The same factionalism; the inefficiency, corruption, and incompetance; the violence. The only difference is that there will be a different set of pigs at the trough, and maybe a reduction in the cash poured into the situation by the EU and the U.S. There will be no increase in law and order and justice among Palestinians. No better schools, health care, or other infrastructure. No greater economic opportunities. The average Palestinian is still fucked. New boss = old boss.

Pres. Bush laid this all out quite clearly years ago. The Palestinians need real democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of association and assembly, fiscally competant and transparent government, an independant judiciary, an independant banking system, professional police and a standing-down of other armed forces. For "Palestine" to be a country, it is not enough for them to have a negotiated and accepted border, they need to act like a country within that border. The Palestinians say "border first", and then they will implement all the rest. The Israelis say that there is no one to negotiate borders with unless and until the Palestinians get a grip on themselves, at least insofar as having central control over the use of force.

The Israelis are right, of course. So while the Palestinians continue to muck around, the Israelis keep building their wall, improving their economy and society, and killing terrorists. This will only change when the Palestinians change. No amount of "pressure" applied to the Israelis will alter the fact that as long as the Palestinians are divided and disorganized, and uncontrollable, there will be no significant progress toward a free and independent "Palestine".

 

[kasheem]

What I expect to see from the Palestinians is more of the same. The same factionalism; the inefficiency, corruption, and incompetance; the violence. The only difference is that there will be a different set of pigs at the trough, and maybe a reduction in the cash poured into the situation by the EU and the U.S. There will be no increase in law and order and justice among Palestinians. No better schools, health care, or other infrastructure. No greater economic opportunities. The average Palestinian is still fucked. New boss = old boss.

Pres. Bush laid this all out quite clearly years ago. The Palestinians need real democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of association and assembly, fiscally competant and transparent government, an independant judiciary, an independant banking system, professional police and a standing-down of other armed forces. For "Palestine" to be a country, it is not enough for them to have a negotiated and accepted border, they need to act like a country within that border. The Palestinians say "border first", and then they will implement all the rest. The Israelis say that there is no one to negotiate borders with unless and until the Palestinians get a grip on themselves, at least insofar as having central control over the use of force.

The Israelis are right, of course. So while the Palestinians continue to muck around, the Israelis keep building their wall, improving their economy and society, and killing terrorists. This will only change when the Palestinians change. No amount of "pressure" applied to the Israelis will alter the fact that as long as the Palestinians are divided and disorganized, and uncontrollable, there will be no significant progress toward a free and independent "Palestine".

President Bush is a liar and a crook...

I don't know about Hamas. So far I don't like them but they're the government, you got to deal with them. I just hope they get more intelligent people are in the leadership of the party than have been up to now. I also hope Netanyahu does not win the coming Israeli election...

 

[Joe]

No, I'm a pragmatist. How about you? Besides, who's got the nuclear weapons?

You've lost me, what relevance does Israels arsenal have with the debate in hand?

And if we were to take Israels nuclear capacity into consideration it would discredit the very point you're trying to prove.... Israel has never used its military nuclear arms against its arab neighbours.

 

[happie chappie]

And even if they don't, the talk seems to be of putting together a government of Palestinian national unity.

So in one sense it could be like the Six Counties - you'd have Israel (Paisley) sat there noisily not talking to Hamas (the Shinners) while managing to negotiate with the government via its Fatah members (SDLP).

There is another parallel with the IRA. All the time the British government was maintaining that it "would never talk to terrorists" it was doing exactly that!

Willie Whitelaw, former deputy Prime Minister, met and held talks face-to-face with the Provos back in 1972. It's also clear that the Ango-Irish Agreement and the IRA ceasefire didn't just materialise out of nowhere, but followed a lengthy periods of intense behind-the-scenes contacts, talks, soundings, discussions and so on - some involving intermediaries - undertaken by diplomats, M15 officers, politicians, priests and the like.

Happie Chappie

 

[Joe]

There is another parallel with the IRA. All the time the British government was maintaining that it "would never talk to terrorists" it was doing exactly that!

Willie Whitelaw, former deputy Prime Minister, met and held talks face-to-face with the Provos back in 1972. It's also clear that the Ango-Irish Agreement and the IRA ceasefire didn't just materialise out of nowhere, but followed a lengthy periods of intense behind-the-scenes contacts, talks, soundings, discussions and so on - some involving intermediaries - undertaken by diplomats, M15 officers, politicians, priests and the like.

Happie Chappie

Although a vague analogy can be made, no opinion can be based on it.

The IRA were fighting for independence from the British, when the British were willing to talk, it was easy to start dialogue... Hamas' very existence revolves around the destruction of Israel.

Untill Hamas revise their objective dialogue is a distant dream.

 

[nino_savatte]

You've lost me, what relevance does Israels arsenal have with the debate in hand?

And if we were to take Israels nuclear capacity into consideration it would discredit the very point you're trying to prove.... Israel has never used its military nuclear arms against its arab neighbours.

Can you feel the love?

Funny how that alleged suicide attack last week turned out to be such a fiction - isn't it?

 

[Joe]

Can you feel the love?

Funny how that alleged suicide attack last week turned out to be such a fiction - isn't it?

You clearly stated that you don't expect Hamas to cook anything up, you seem to hold them with some regard. Yet 5 days prior to announcing their election candidates they said this:

"I say to our brothers in the [Palestinian] Authority that we are witnessing political stagnation,"
"I say it loudly, we will not enter a new truce and our people are preparing for a new round of conflict." - Khaled Meshaal 9/12/05

I foolishly talked my way into a game of cat and mouse with you, so I'll retrace my footsteps and start over, rather than circumventing any palpable perspective could you clearly state your thoughts on the following:

Are Hamas a respectable organisation?
In its current manifestation do you believe Hamas to have interests in peace?
Do you agree with the Hamas stance when it comes to Israels right to exist?

 

[nino_savatte]

You clearly stated that you don't expect Hamas to cook anything up, you seem to hold them with some regard. Yet 5 days prior to announcing their election candidates they said this:

"I say to our brothers in the [Palestinian] Authority that we are witnessing political stagnation,"
"I say it loudly, we will not enter a new truce and our people are preparing for a new round of conflict." - Khaled Meshaal 9/12/05

I foolishly talked my way into a game of cat and mouse with you, so I'll retrace my footsteps and start over, rather than circumventing any palpable perspective could you clearly state your thoughts on the following:

Are Hamas a respectable organisation?
In its current manifestation do you believe Hamas to have interests in peace?
Do you agree with the Hamas stance when it comes to Israels right to exist?

What I expect from you are more apologies for Israeli excess and to keep defending the actions of the IDF. You forget, Joe (if this is your real name) that you and I have met before; and your one-dimensional view of the situation was fairly evident then.

You're a patronising fucker too, from what I remember.

 

[Joe]

What I expect from you are more apologies for Israeli excess and to keep defending the actions of the IDF. You forget, Joe (if this is your real name) that you and I have met before; and your one-dimensional view of the situation was fairly evident then.

You're a patronising fucker too, from what I remember.

lol what a suprise you circumvented presenting any perspective in public...

I asked you to tell us your stance.

You opted out of such a notion in favour of assassinating my character instead.... honourable debating tactics

 

[nino_savatte]

You place your faith in a terrorist organisation but fail to put this same trust in Israel.... strange.

Thinking by numbers again, Joe? I guess you can't help it. I say one thing and you deliberately read it through the prism of your bigotry.

 

[nino_savatte]

lol what a suprise you circumvented presenting any perspective in public...

I asked you to tell us your stance.

You opted out of such a notion in favour of assassinating my character instead.... honourable debating tactics

Unlike you - eh? You forget, we've been here before and on that occasion, the best you could offer were apologies.

We know what your stance is Joe, that is obvious: to keep defending the actions of the IDF regardless.

 

[nino_savatte]

Although a vague analogy can be made, no opinion can be based on it.

The IRA were fighting for independence from the British, when the British were willing to talk, it was easy to start dialogue... Hamas' very existence revolves around the destruction of Israel.

Untill Hamas revise their objective dialogue is a distant dream.

Like I say, you're one-dimensional and this post says it all.

 

[Joe]

Thinking by numbers again, Joe? I guess you can't help it. I say one thing and you deliberately read it through the prism of your bigotry.

Your debating skills revolve around ad hominem... focus on what I'm saying not on your misguided preconceptions of my character.

 

[Joe]

Like I say, you're one-dimensional and this post says it all.

Are you suggesting that hamas recognise Israel's right to exist?