*Guns/Crack: The Commander - your opinion please?

[TinyCrendon]

OK, stuufing/mules account for some drugs, of course. But they are not the big carriers. If you want to stop drugs in JA you go to politicans and the armed services who are the biggest drug runners. Instead efforts are focussed on the "street level" dealer, most often poor fucked up dudes (and yes they may well be wankers too) who are effectively chancing it.
See how many of those type of importers end up jail. Plenty. See how many of the proper players/profiteers end up in jail. Very rare.

Im sure you all know these sites/journalists but check the work of Gary Webb, Cele Castillo, Al Giordiano (www.narconews.com) for the reality of the trade.

I guess thats why i get worked up by peeps like The Kommondant who are so `in the way` its untrue...otherwise the combination of drug-war advocates, politicans and police are going to mean so many more dead, jailed, fucked up and bereaved individuals...

 

[nicnic]

As far as I know the main (not some)transfer of Cocaine from JA to Brixton is via mules. Given the choice of 1000 mules, a tenth of which are not going to get through and one large shipment with the chance of loosing everything, I know the method I would choose?

I standby my comments that improvements in the holding facilities will cut down on the amount of Cocaine to Crack in Brixton. This will not stop the drug trade but will stem the current loop-whole and once realised hopefully stop the extortion/jailing of recruited Jamaicans as mules.

 

[bang]

nic - i hear what you're saying about more holding cells - but do you think that's a permanent solution?
No one has offered a possible solution to this problem apart from legalisation yet

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: bang ]

 

[johnwisehammer]

No offence (and to bring the topic off-topic even more) but that holding cells thing sounds suspiciously like something that gets leaked by the POA and PolConfed just before wage negotiations come up. (Fact: HMCE officers get paid extra to watch people shit in airports).

 

[nicnic]

Bang
Not a permanent solution, but the Custom and Excise staff have been requesting more holding cells for this specific problem for a long period of time. I would go far as saying that the high number of known mules getting through is what’s escalating Brixton crack/violence problem. More holding cells will not stop Brixton’s problems, but from what I’m hearing it’s a massive loop hole which has been too long in addressing.

Agree with your point made about legalisation but I feel the polictical impact is just to sensible for all the worlds goverments to realise at once. Remember listening to old Douglas rambling on about this in the film 'Traffic'

nic

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Adam, you talk sense.

Does anyone have any dollar figures for the size of the coke business in London per year? My guess is, it's in the billions.

How many mules must you stuff to bring in a billion dollars' worth of coke?

No doubt it happens, but to get that kind of tonnage, you must send it through in ship containers, etc, just like they do here.

There's too much money to be made from drugs, to risk any of it being flushed down the toilet.

 

[hatboy]

For fuck's sake start some other threads! Thanks so much for respecting my wishes to stay on topic guys!!

I respectfully request that people who don't live in or know Brixton could leave this alone abit. PLEASE.

 

[slowdog]

As I used to live in Brixton and I still often socialise there, on behalf of Hatboy, I shall bring the thread back to local issues.

People in Brixton street deal because they live in poverty and dealing is an effective way of making a living, and as they are otherwise criminalised at a very early age they have little to lose anyway.

People get addicted to smack and crack because it is one of very few escapes from otherwise stinking, miserable lives.

Peasants in South America and Asia produce narcotics because in a harsh international marketplace, it is the only effective way of using their land to support their families. (Oh dear, I seem to have moved out of Brixton).

Meanwhile, it doesn't take rocket science to work out that the drug trade in Brixton or elsewhere is not driven by Jamaican single mothers opting for the pre-flight dinner service, but by big business and banks, and by implication politicians and the worlds security and police forces that support them. (Oh no, I've moved even further out of Brixton. But wait, I shall return there)

Brixton is not an island. The same forces that fuck up the lives of people in Brixton, are the same forces that squeeze the breath out of the world's peasants. Brixton doesn't have a crime problem, it has a socio-economic problem, just like the rest of the world.

Commander Paddick - you are obviously well meaning, and believe your role as a policeman restricts your attention to Lambeth. Indeed, gentrification ie. cleaning up the streets, may make some residents lives more bearable, improve your statistics, promotion perhaps, but it will just move the problem elsewhere. Your role as a human being, however, compels you to see the bigger picture. Many people who read and post on these boards are politically active both in local, Brixton issues, and in wider international issues. In truth they are essentially
different versions of the same thing. If you really want to make a difference then can I suggest that as a human being, you join the side of the weak and meak. And that as a policeman, you stop kicking the shit out of us on demos, and stop supporting the rich, the powerful, and the power structure, that ulimately brings misery onto the streets of Brixton.

 

[pk]

And make sure you pull an honest pint at the weekend whilst your wife is out horseriding!!



(Long story)

 

[TinyCrendon]

Nice one slowdog.

Hatboy - I dont think it went off topic quite as much as you feared. Surely (and in a political sense too) this is a good example of `thinking locally acting globally`. Or at least `thinking locally and globally`dont you...er...think.

When one gets an (alleged) opportunity to `talk` face to face with someone who says he is the Kommondant, its an opportunity however fleeting to put down the view that international drug policy DIRECTLY affects brixton, lambeth and of course every area of the UK. Dont you think so ?

Thomas A - A couple of years ago there was some debate in the media about the size of the UK drug market and its contribution to GDP/GNP. (Although it was a pretty flippant media debate like we get in the UK). I honestly didnt see any truly reliable figures though peolpe settled on a figure of around £8-10bn p/a as my memory serves me.
One of the strongest arguments for decriminalisation is the economic argument. If, under present circumstances, the Uk somehow eliminated all illegal drugs it would therefore cost the economy something in that region, £8-10bn per year. Which would be an economic disaster for the UK. Now imagine you are in Bolivia and its 55% of GDP. It is UNREMOVABLE BY ANYONE.
To simplify it somewhat the `War On Drugs` is that right wing people want control of the drug trade. (Colombia. Afghanistan, Burma, The Americas in general) Control it, profit from it and criminalise the population at the same time. Perfect. And that is what happens.

 

[Streathamite]

I'm OK with: Cannabis, Ecstasy
NOT OK with: Heroin, Crack, Ketamine.
Cocaine, it strikes me, is problematical. On the basis that many cocaine users are precisely those casual Weekend users who do not constitute a threat to public safety or good order (this seems to me to be the fault-line between "OK with" and "not OK with" ) - Crack users and dealers
are very much a menace, and VERY bad news for Brixton's long-suffering, public. Squaring this circle will help greatly.

 

[TinyCrendon]

Red Jezza - so you want to keep the coke/heroin situation the same then. you think its working like this ? has locking up millions (worldwide) kept the drugs off your streets?

What do you think should be done to change the situ for the better ?

 

[Streathamite]

Check PMs Adam, please

 

[hatboy]

Enjoyed your post Slowdog.

Where the hell is The Commander? Do you think he's been advised not too continue this. It wouldn't surprise me.

Slowdog - what happened to you? You don't answer my PM's and despite saying how much you liked Brixton, you seem to have left shortly after moving here. What happened? Haven't seen you anywhere.

 

[TinyCrendon]

`The Commander` doesnt have any answers, wont contemplate thinking for himself, blames other people (politicians/the public) for not wanting change but at the same time adheres strictly to what they tell him to do and refuses to debate ("ooh i'm in hot water"). Just in a very nice liberal way.

Thats what liberals do, its why OB appoint them so its all sounds good and the same shit continues. Just Blairite policing. If the Commander were able to think for himself he wouldnt adhere to the gang structure he is in. Dont be suckered by him (assuming he is who he says he is which im afraid i still doubt - but we'll try and debate him as if he is).

 

[Streathamite]

1) Adam - The Commander is who he says he is. I have the proof in my inbox.
2) I take your points as regards fence-sitting "liberal" offricialdom (at least you know where you are with a 100% pure bastard in uniform!) - but he's gone further than any copper (or politician-in-government) I can think of in bringing something approaching a hint of realism and common sense to the absurdity/nightmare of drugs legislation/policing. No, it's notmuch. but it's something, and more than I've seen before, or elsewhere (to repeat myself)....
3

you think its working like this ? has locking up millions (worldwide) kept the drugs off your streets?

No it isn't working-but legalisation, certainly of Heroin, possibly of coke, may well be even more disastrous. I don't see how you can legalise consumption, without legalising purchase, and therefore sale, and therefore supply, and therefore distribution, and therefore importation. And who would you grant such licence to? Big Business? (M & S-branded heroin - now with free needle! no thanks). The State? Even on a non-profit basis, no government and no state could be trusted with such a power-especially not on a monopoly basis.
The Medical Profession? what starts in the hands of compassionate, ethical physicians would end up in those of NHS Bureaucrats - another nightmare scenario
Mr Corner Shop? within 6 weeks not one of them could afford their newly-stratospheric insurance premiums!
So No, Adam, It's not working. But yes, for now keep it this way as the least awful alternative, whilst trying whatever can be done to shift the emphasis to healthcare, cure, prevention etc.
Very, very imperfect approach,I know - just can't see any other as that much better.

 

[slowdog]

Red Jezza - your argument appears to be thus. Don't legalise heroin because it would be disastrous and worse than the present situation. So how exactly would it (could it) be worse?
Is it just because, as you imply, that we can't work out how it would be traded? That seems to me a poor argument. Some people might even call that a tautology ie. not an argument at all. Adam, on the other hand, has made a very good argument. If you disagree with him, then you have to challenge the assumptions and reasoning in his argument, and not just make a counter-statement, sit back, and say there thats settled. Some people might call that reactionary.

 

[TinyCrendon]

Red Jezza - Cheers for the reply. Cant say I agree w/you though. I think keeping things the same is simply a recipie for an American-type situation very soon. Lots of people in jail, lots of crack on the streets, lots of death. But I'm sorry to say I think that is EXACTLY what powerful people want. Maybe not in the forefront of their minds but in the notion that if someone is a drug addict and/or difficult to deal with or a street dealer then prison is the traditional option.

It seems pretty perverse that `treatment` and so on starts mainly AFTER addiction and sometimes, though not often, in jail. A bit late then.

The methods of distribution are indeed the crux of the matter. Ive been on the radio with far better informed dudes than myself from Release (and other lot whose name Ive rudely forgot) and they taught me a lot.

Firstly each drug has to be taken individually.

You wouldnt lump treatment for alcohol and tobacco into one basket for example, no alcohol patches etc etc.

So you work on the best method of treatment/prevention/distribution method per drug. Heroin would come through doctors (see various succesful cases of prescribed smack, notably in Glasgow) for example. Even though popular opinion says people cant survive and have lives whilst using heroin it aint true, it has to be measured (doseage), it has to be given free to stop them burgling/prostituting etc.

Marijuana laws - well, that argument is done IMO.

Ecstasy - testing, education. Or go on letting millions of kids take amateur chemicals every weekend. Distribution, well, I would bite the bullet here and have special regulated shops (a la alcohol in Sweden), others say str8 government outlets (fantasy IMO) others say through doctors. I think in these cases its about amount per week/month etc. So it would be impossible to buy 50,000 Es over the counter for example.

Cocaine - in many ways crack (through doctors a la smack) is easier than powder cocaine. The `recreational` majority who dont develop serious problems using powder are difficult to fathom in terms of distrib. The stuff was legal and available from Chemists remember up to the 1940s (check that date it may have been later), my Grandad for example was a big fan of the tonics that had smack and cocaine in (no wonder). Of course he despised all drug users. I would venture the E shop option above but it is a hard one (see note at bottom of page).

To me though the hardest drug to work with is one hardly mentioned at all: LSD. So unpredictable in its effects yet so strong. Unaddictive (yes we all know `casualties` but it aint the same) yet heavily hallucinogenic. Coulod people go and buy 50 tabs, what if they took em all, is it pesonal responsibility? Its more that most drugs have a SIMILAR effect on DIFFERENT peeps, wheras LSD has DIFFERENT effects on the SAME peeps from one tab 2 another (within reason etc etc).

But look RJ etc Im a journo not a drug distrib expert, I suggest you take it further and look at experts (such as Realease) who can take the distribution argument a little further and offer you some more ideas to inject...er...chew on....

ciao


To all/The Kommondant: check these sites for the realities of the drug `war`, off the top of my head:

http://www.aci.net/kalliste/os99001.pdf - if you want to see about certain banks etc...
www.copvcia.com
www.narconews.com
http://www.guerrillanews.com/crack/links.html

 

[nelly]

Red Jezza - Prohibition isn't working here in Brixton or elsewhere. People are only just starting to have a real debate about what we should replace it with. And no we don't want transnationals peddling dope IMO.

Some of the key thinking within the UK is now happening in connection with something called the Angel Declaration - see the following site:

http://www.angeldeclaration.com/declaration.htm

Some of the solutions are obvious and probably not so controversial (e.g. weed - probably treat it much like alcohol - availability thru off licenses and homegrown) but for other substances notably heroin/crack there is more need for debate. Given that people use crack in Brixton and will continue to do so regardless of Brian's best efforts what would we replace the existing gun-infested system with? What could a post-prohibition system of crack availability look like in Brixton? Could we propose something that would be better than what we've got?

I know this is general drugs debate territory but also believe some of the key thinking has to come bottom up from places where people live with this stuff. Think global...

BTW much respect to Brian for being here.

 

[Andria]

Dear Nelly

Thank you for your message
I was one of the Author's of the Angel Declaration!

It was initiated by an ex-lawyer businessman, who gathered a group of full-on reformers together, and that was the result. It was very tough for me as an ex-addict, widowed by AIDS to not push for a bigger section on Harm Reduction - treatment, AIDS prevetnion etc, but I think my peers managed to convince me that the section on it was big enough..

Are you involved in any of the growing reform initiatives? If you aren't but want to be, please let me know. I can sure find you a man who will(!) - if u catch my drift!

Great to know you are out there

Till next time


Andria

 

[Andria]

Dear Nelly,

I see you were up at 8.32 am working - well you must be commited; you should definitely join one of our industrious gangs of reformers, if at all possible.

You say something in response to Red Jezza about not wanting IMO 'peddling drugs.' Mmh, first of all, I'm not convinced they are not already involved with it (but have no proof so better shut up)

But much more importantly, it is very likely that when the drug laws do change the economic beneficiaries will be the multi-nationals and so on. It is inevitable. Yes, this is hard to accept, for ALL socialist reformers.

However, we could - if motivated - make that less a home-goal for them by beginning now to plan small-cooperatives of medical marijuana folk and so on. This is already happening, though some police are wasting our precious taxes arresting these guys, I suspect that this whole thing will continue to progress. Indeed, many feel that it might be just a case of capitulation of the state, as it's too difficult for them to drop their pride and say this law is daft!

Personally, I'm open. I've seen extraordinary acts of goodness, humility, and pragmatic compassion (as well as inane and unspeakable cruelty) so I really cannot predict

I only know we need to keep on keeping on, and anger must be only a part of the energy that fules us: when we speak to people who clearly do not know any better, we have to reach into their minds and hearts and understand their fears and what their resistance to these changes is about.

Drugs-demonisation/brain-washing has been happening for eons, and is deeply ingrained in ALL of our psyches. It's a long road but...

I can feel a song coming on

One more thing about Brixton: does this sound very naive??Should a few of us 'streety activists' go down and give the influx - if that is at all true - of NEW crack dealers - a polite chat about not f-ing it up for the rest of us; "if it works in Brixton, it could be done throughout the country, and so on."??

DO ANSWER THIS ONE. I ain't doing it on my own anyway

And Alan J - don't be so fliming cheeky!! Tee-hee ('c u' on other list Tues..)AND where's Brian Paddick gone?

Love and solidarity

andria (efthimiou-mordaunt)
Users Voice Ed

 

[Brian]

I know this won't inspire you with confidence but I left my password at work and not knowing quite what I was doing accidentally changed my post name to 'Brian' from 'The Commander'. Still, I feel more comfortable with this. Those who want to check it out can go back to old posts to see The Commander had changed to 'Brian'.

Now guys, you might find this hard to believe but I am really busy and do not have as much time as I would like to be with you all. It would be great to meet up, face to face, socially and have a real discussion but I am not sure that is allowed

Adam, I was so irresponsible as to join the police when I was 18. Have your views matured and developed since you were 18? When mine did and I became increasingly concerned about the police and what we were about I though to myself I have 2 choices. Either influence the team from the field of play, become captain some day maybe, or stand on the sidelines and shout. What would be more effective? So I am on the team, playing and influencing. I think you and Ken Livingstone have got something though. I think, with the right safeguards against political control, the local police commander should be held to account for policing his/her areas and recruited/sacked on the basis of doing a good job. I am held to account (should be, it has been a bit of a mess lately) first Tuesday of every month at Lambeth Town Hall, Room 8 at 6pm. Be there or be square. (Not March though I'm on holiday!)

Hatboy - ethnic minority recruiting is better than it was. Peeps are recruited centrally and then sent out to all parts of London. I get no choice as to who I get and it would be against the law to send black recruits to specific areas - discrimination on the grounds of race. There is nothing that makes my blood boil more than racist police officers. I cannot comment on a couple of high profile cases that are still going through the discipline process but we PROSECUTE racist and violent criminals who wear police uniforms. Racist policing is rare in Lambeth (unfortunately not exstinct). Someone has already found out which gay club I go to and is trying to cause SERIOUS shit for me. It's nice to be popular!!

Johnw - we were suffering in Lambeth having to send large numbers of officers to Central London but it has calmed down now. We have very high numbers of female recruits.

Johnny - regular hits on the dealers are not easy. They are getting really aggressive with us at the moment and making death threats against the officers in the front line.

Longtoe - we need to do more about officers' attitudes towards black people, all people who are seen as 'different' from the officers. Allowing them to mix with 'different' people in non-conflict situations is a good move. Giving a mixed team of police officers and BEM people a task to do together is one of the best ways. Let me take these ideas away and have a play with them.
Things are fundamentally different from when I joined 25 years ago but there is always room for improvement. Select one of my offficers at random and you've got a very good chance that s/he won't be racist.

Slowdog - you are right. Most people caught up with drugs are victims of the big dealers. The punters, the street dealers, the mules - they are all exploited. The main reason is poverty - the feeling there is no 'legitimate' way of earning a living so you may as well deal crack. Wrong, misguided and destructive but that's what we've done to these people.

nicnic - this is about criminals full stop. This is not a race issue. This is about poor people being exploited who happen to live on the importation line. Locking up everyone coming in from Jamaica is not the answer.

Drfranni - more youth provision is not really for your kids. It is for the muggers and those at risk of getting into mugging. If they have something better to do, then it will be safer for your kids and the rest of us.

Brian aka 'The Commander'

 

[johnwisehammer]

Thanks for making a concerted effort to reply to lots of peeps.

 

[hatboy]

Yes, it is appreciated Brian. Good post. I think you have a lot of support locally. I've never really looked up to a member of the Police force before, but you do have my respect.

 

[hatboy]

Andria - I really don't think having a polite chat with crack dealers and telling them to move along now and not fuck it up for the rest of us would work. At the very least you would be told to fuck off, possibly beaten up and if you were persistent enough you could probably get yourself shot.

 

[gate]

I don't know why Cannabis is still ilegal, as this is far from a dangerous drug, it is a wolrd away from harmful drugs like cocaine and heroin. Cannabis users don't fund their habit by crime and cannabis is anything like as addictive as those drugs either. It also wastes police time and the time of the courts in prosecuting cannabis users, when that time could be spent fighting dangerous dealing in dangerous drugs. In America most of the people in prison from Americas war on drugs are harmless cannabis users! This is a complete utter waste of time and resources!

 

[Brian]

This is a very difficult issue for Brixton. The market stall holders, the shop owners and the overhelming majority of the people of Brixton support my officers attempts to rid the streets of the drug dealers. Someone gave information that a dealer was operating but when officers moved in, the same person was in the crowd making out he was hostile to what the police were doing. When the show was over, he went up to the officers and apologised that he had to join in or the dealers would get him. It is blatant intimidation of ordinary people. Yes it is dangerous to stand up to these people but unless we can think of ways where we can all stand together, so they are out-numbered and realise that everyone is against them, we are not going to get them shifted.

There has to be a priority list of what the police deal with. That is not to say that you can blow cannabis smoke in an officer's face and expect him/her to ignore you. They won't!

We have analysed the results of pilot in Lambeth not to arrest people for small amounts of cannabis for personal use. Results should be out w/c 11 February. I cannot say what the results are but... .

The Home Secretary saw the report on Friday and is taking it into account in deciding whether to reclassify cannabis from Class B to Class C... BUT BE WARNED! Whilst there would be no automatic power of arrest if it goes to Class C, you could still be reported and still get (a maximum of) 2 years imprisonment. If you refuse your name & address you could still get nicked for it. We are a long way from legalisation/decriminalisation.

 

[nelly]

Brian

It is evident that heroin could be shifted partly or wholly into the medical domain as an alternative to the current system by which it is available. For prohibitionists and reformers alike solutions to problematic crack use and all that goes with it present the hardest challenge.

In your experience of policing crack use in Brixton do you have a sense of any way in which its availability could be regulated that might improve on the current situation? (I'm talking radical thought experiments here - not feasible policies for next week). As a public health specialist I don't get to see much of the enforcement end of things and would genuinely welcome your thoughts.

Just say if this question is too sensitive to answer here. I appreciate that it might be. If so that's OK. I am not interested in the Met's view here but your personal opinion and the development of models that might be long term goals within the drug reform movement.

BTW I am new on the Urban75 site and finding my way around. Hopefully my profile and details are visible. I can also be contacted privately (by you or anyone else) at work on:

[email protected]

 

[TinyCrendon]

.

 

[Brian]

Adam - I have to be careful. As people have said before, expressing my views here could end-up in the Press or on my bosses desks!

The trouble with legalising drugs is it will inevitably result in more people trying them. I am sure many people are put off because they are illegal. A certain percentage of the population have what I call addictive personalities i.e. they cannot have just one drink but become alcoholics, cannot just use drugs at weekends but drugs take over their lives. There would inevitably be more addicts.

The benefits of legalising drugs are that you could regulate them (over 18s for example), ensure they are pure, clean needles, and so on. The long-term health effects e.g. heart problems from cocaine, would remain but many of the bad side-effects e.g. HIV would reduce. You would also take much of the profit out of it so maybe people would not shoot each other over drug deals. You would still get some people stealing to buy drugs even if they were 'officially' available.

Someone came to see me on Friday and said that a new batch of drug dealers had taken over parts of Brixton pushing the established dealers out. The displaced dealers had to earn a living so they have switched to street robbery. I don't know if it's true but there is always the chance that legalising drugs would just push criminals into some other activity as harmful if not more harmful to the community.

What do I really think? We need to help those people who, if they knew they were going to get addicted, would never have started, to get off the stuff. We need to take the criminality out of it by legalisation and strict control. We need to educate people as to the effects drugs will have on them short term/long term and allow those old enough to know better to make their own decisions about what they do to their bodies.

Nelly, as I have said before, apparently they have developed a cocaine-based tablet that might help with crack/cocaine addiction. I understand that physical crack addiction can be overcome more easily than physical heroin addiction (rather than psychological addiction which is worse in crack).