TinyCrendon
New Member
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*Guns/Crack: The Commander - your opinion please?
- Thread starter hatboy
- Start date
This is where I am in danger of getting into real hot water! As a police officer I have to say that legalisation/decriminalisation is a matter for politicians not police officers. Not being cynical but politicians always have this dilemma: do the right thing but if it's not popular and you lose votes, you lose power and then you cannot do anything. Do the popular thing, win votes and keep power and you could end up doing the wrong thing because there are more votes in it. Does that mean politicians make decisions on the basis of how many votes it will win/lose them or on the basis that it is clearly the right thing to do (or only when the two coincide)? Change in the law on anything except cannabis - no chance. Is it right to decriminalise, strictly control, licence, ... maybe some things.
There has been no treatment for cociane/crack addiction until now but I got an e-mail today about a tablet dervied from cocaine that has been developed that might provide a safer alternative to crack. If this is the case, then maybe strictly controlled treatment with heroin and this new stuff might be something worth doing. Whatever we think, I think the whole thing about decriminalisation fails the 'number of votes' test and is likely to fo some years yet! Got to keep pushing on those boundaries!
There has been no treatment for cociane/crack addiction until now but I got an e-mail today about a tablet dervied from cocaine that has been developed that might provide a safer alternative to crack. If this is the case, then maybe strictly controlled treatment with heroin and this new stuff might be something worth doing. Whatever we think, I think the whole thing about decriminalisation fails the 'number of votes' test and is likely to fo some years yet! Got to keep pushing on those boundaries!
I'll let others respond to the Commander, but I agree with bang .. part of this debate should be shifted back to the drugs forum.
mach v
la-di-dah liberal wuss
I'm pro total decriminalisation, as I feel that it would be the only effective way for controlling drug supply and demand, and therefore allowing access to the users. especially if supply is given at below street prices, but I also understand that any political party that tried to push this through in one stage wouldn't last the next election and the law would be repealled immediately.
I am also sure that total decriminalisation would lead to "the wrong message" being passed down to the general public who, as a rule, want to get off their tits as much as possible without fear of social stigma.
An education package needs to be in place that accurately informs people about the "highs" and "lows" of drug use (both legal and illegal) and deals with the perils of addiction. Once this is in place for a few years, then can we move towards total decriminalisation.
Didn't Blunkett make statements about Heroin becoming available through GPs again? And when does Cannabis become a Class C drug?
I am also sure that total decriminalisation would lead to "the wrong message" being passed down to the general public who, as a rule, want to get off their tits as much as possible without fear of social stigma.
An education package needs to be in place that accurately informs people about the "highs" and "lows" of drug use (both legal and illegal) and deals with the perils of addiction. Once this is in place for a few years, then can we move towards total decriminalisation.
Didn't Blunkett make statements about Heroin becoming available through GPs again? And when does Cannabis become a Class C drug?
TinyCrendon
New Member
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You want a police force that MAKES the laws??? You want a police force that is 100% in favour of all current laws and all government policies???????
I think there is a name for places like that ...lemme think..... oh yes, fascist/communist/name-an-ist dictatorships
Long live an independant, namby pamby, liberal police force
I think there is a name for places like that ...lemme think..... oh yes, fascist/communist/name-an-ist dictatorships
Long live an independant, namby pamby, liberal police force
J
johnwisehammer
Guest
Although I agree with a lot of what Adam and other posters have said, I'm tempted to think that perhaps we're not exploiting The Commandant's presence here in the best way by making generally-applicable statements, even if they're true. Maybe we ought to tighten in on very focussed Lambeth issues? But on the other hand, isn't this what it's all about?
corporate whore
oh, thought you were dead
I'm in with JohnW here - The Commander may wield a lot of power, but the legalisation of hard drugs on a grand scale is not one of them - can we keep this discussion on the drugs board and talk about local issues?
The idea for a 'designated dealing zone' is pretty good, like Hamburg's street of whores..
More later
The idea for a 'designated dealing zone' is pretty good, like Hamburg's street of whores..
More later
TinyCrendon
New Member
.
"Why be so irresonsible to become a police officer undertaking laws over which you have no control ?" That was the quote which make me think - wrongly it would seem - that you felt that police officers should have control over the law
I'm sorry that you consider me patronising - and have no idea why you want to make this a "personal" issue "Hope you dont touch any of that addictive junk you deal (see methadone)..." is pretty offensive by any standard
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: drfranni ]
I'm sorry that you consider me patronising - and have no idea why you want to make this a "personal" issue "Hope you dont touch any of that addictive junk you deal (see methadone)..." is pretty offensive by any standard
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: drfranni ]
Adam that was REALLY offensive ... 
I agree with JWH ... let's stick to local issues ... the rest can and should go to the drugs forum.
I agree with JWH ... let's stick to local issues ... the rest can and should go to the drugs forum.
Since I started this, and like several here, I live in the middle of Brixton, I'd like to put my foot down abit on this thread.
This is about Lambeth, and specifically Brixton.
Please can we keep to the subject of drug and gun crime and the local area. If you want to talk more generally please start another thread on the drugs board.
This is an all to rare opportunity for Brixton people to talk directly to a high-ranking Police Officer - the Chief Commander for Lambeth.
Adam P (and others), I hope you can respect this by taking general anger and suspicion of the Police to another thread.
I am not naive about the Police, but we will be wasting the Commander's presence here if we go on the attack. And as he has said, much of this argument is about politics, not local policing.
So let's keep focused on this. Thankyou.
Commander, it hasn't come up yet much. But how are you getting on with getting more ethnic minority officers at Brixton? And how are you getting on with removing racist officers, educating those inexperienced with dealing with the panoply of people they'll meet in Brixton and generally building trust across the local community? There are still incidents of racist policing in Brixton. I don't even think they are that rare sadly. (Accepting that there are some very decent Police too).
I am aware of the initiative whereby you've got volunteer local black men coming in to the Police station and "telling it like it is". (A couple of friends are doing this) How's that going?
The council seem to be neglecting provision for youth/teenagers in the area. (For instance the neglect of Dexter Square). This contributes to youngsters going off the rails and becoming criminals IMO (of course there are other factors). What can the Police do with Lambeth Council to encourage the council to provide youth facilities?
By the way, which gay clubs do you go to? (Oh OK, you needn't answer that one).
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: hatboy ]
This is about Lambeth, and specifically Brixton.
Please can we keep to the subject of drug and gun crime and the local area. If you want to talk more generally please start another thread on the drugs board.
This is an all to rare opportunity for Brixton people to talk directly to a high-ranking Police Officer - the Chief Commander for Lambeth.
Adam P (and others), I hope you can respect this by taking general anger and suspicion of the Police to another thread.
I am not naive about the Police, but we will be wasting the Commander's presence here if we go on the attack. And as he has said, much of this argument is about politics, not local policing.
So let's keep focused on this. Thankyou.
Commander, it hasn't come up yet much. But how are you getting on with getting more ethnic minority officers at Brixton? And how are you getting on with removing racist officers, educating those inexperienced with dealing with the panoply of people they'll meet in Brixton and generally building trust across the local community? There are still incidents of racist policing in Brixton. I don't even think they are that rare sadly. (Accepting that there are some very decent Police too).
I am aware of the initiative whereby you've got volunteer local black men coming in to the Police station and "telling it like it is". (A couple of friends are doing this) How's that going?
The council seem to be neglecting provision for youth/teenagers in the area. (For instance the neglect of Dexter Square). This contributes to youngsters going off the rails and becoming criminals IMO (of course there are other factors). What can the Police do with Lambeth Council to encourage the council to provide youth facilities?
By the way, which gay clubs do you go to? (Oh OK, you needn't answer that one).
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: hatboy ]
Hatboy - doesn't it all seem like a vicious circle? Even if Lambeth provided some services my children would like to use, they would be too frightened to walk there, so the services are underused, so the council doesn't support them OR they are used only by people who have the time to drive the children there and stay with them (ie not single working parents) Most of the street crime near me seems to be perpetrated (?spelling) by children and so many of us keep our children "safe" by confining them to a room, a telly and computer games. If our streets were full of strong, confident children, these nasty little thugs wouldn't have a chance - and the crack dealers might think twice too.
han
love is the answer
lol! 
(erk! I meant 'lol' at Hatboy)
Yes, its the groups of kids roaming the streets that are the scary ones. Plus the dealers. Though it's those who carry knives and guns who are the worst. What in God's name can be done about gun possession? No-one can argue with a gun. That recent incident where two men in a scuffle fired a shot and the bullet went into a passing woman's stomach is an example. It could've been any of us walking down Tulse Hill at 8.30pm that Sunday. My housemates were popping in and out of the shop exactly where it happened. People just don't feel safe anymore.
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: han ]
(erk! I meant 'lol' at Hatboy)Yes, its the groups of kids roaming the streets that are the scary ones. Plus the dealers. Though it's those who carry knives and guns who are the worst. What in God's name can be done about gun possession? No-one can argue with a gun. That recent incident where two men in a scuffle fired a shot and the bullet went into a passing woman's stomach is an example. It could've been any of us walking down Tulse Hill at 8.30pm that Sunday. My housemates were popping in and out of the shop exactly where it happened. People just don't feel safe anymore.
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: han ]
wildwildlifer
Rather small member
I quote the Commander " we have arrested 50 street dealers in the last 12mths". So don't expect us to be overwhelmed at less than 1 street dealer a week being hauled in throughout Lambeth. With such a low arrest rate no wonder there are a flood of volunteers to take their place. Its only by upping the arrest rate that the flow of new dealer recruits will be staunched.
By the way I accept the case for legalisation of all drugs as the only long-term answer. The human need to get off one's face now and then is as old as mankind and prohibition never worked.Everyone should be given drug credit cards so habits can be monitored and intervened in a non-criminalistic setting.
Spraying weedkiller over 3rd World countries as Monsanto/Novartis/Bush are doing in Colombia on a huge scale kills zillions of hard-pressed wildlife whilst not addressing the basic problem of demand. Just wait till the butterflies get organised!
By the way I accept the case for legalisation of all drugs as the only long-term answer. The human need to get off one's face now and then is as old as mankind and prohibition never worked.Everyone should be given drug credit cards so habits can be monitored and intervened in a non-criminalistic setting.
Spraying weedkiller over 3rd World countries as Monsanto/Novartis/Bush are doing in Colombia on a huge scale kills zillions of hard-pressed wildlife whilst not addressing the basic problem of demand. Just wait till the butterflies get organised!
J
johnwisehammer
Guest
Commander - these are questions which are pressing for some boroughs at the moment but they may be non-issues in the case of Lambeth.
- how many (if any) of your officers are being diverted to "anti-terrorism" duties outside Lambeth?
- how is recruitment and retention of female officers (at all ranks) doing?
Thanks.
- how many (if any) of your officers are being diverted to "anti-terrorism" duties outside Lambeth?
- how is recruitment and retention of female officers (at all ranks) doing?
Thanks.
J
Johnny Canuck
Guest
Commander, I'm not a 'local', but my city, Vancouver, B.C., has a similar problem with street dealing of crack.
An area of our city resembles a combat zone, with Central American teenagers dealing to a population you describe as 'chaotic drug users'.
The dealers deal openly; there is no mistaking what they are up to.
To date, the local police have conducted two 'sweeps', wherein they arrest 50 - 100 people on drugs and immigration charges.
Like London, they are back on the streets in awhile, or someone new takes their place.
Still, I can't help but feel that if the police made routine busts, on a daily or weekly basis, the hassle would cause the dealers to move on. It appears that the 'sweeps' occur more for media and political points, as opposed to real enforcement.
It's true that busting the dealers won't stop them, so long as there is a demand.
However, shouldn't the effort be made?
The police routinely stop speeding drivers, even though there is no hope of eradicating that aspect of human behaviour. But the enforcement helps to keep it within bounds.
Wouldn't routine enforcement against street dealers have the same effect?
I note that one of the suburban cities, New Westminster, had a serious problem with dealers operating at the subway stations.
The police there began stopping and arresting these dealers on sight; they soon moved on. Yes, they moved to a different area within the larger metropolitan area, but that is one where the police enforcement isn't so certain.
Would these tactics not work for you in your jurisdiction?
An area of our city resembles a combat zone, with Central American teenagers dealing to a population you describe as 'chaotic drug users'.
The dealers deal openly; there is no mistaking what they are up to.
To date, the local police have conducted two 'sweeps', wherein they arrest 50 - 100 people on drugs and immigration charges.
Like London, they are back on the streets in awhile, or someone new takes their place.
Still, I can't help but feel that if the police made routine busts, on a daily or weekly basis, the hassle would cause the dealers to move on. It appears that the 'sweeps' occur more for media and political points, as opposed to real enforcement.
It's true that busting the dealers won't stop them, so long as there is a demand.
However, shouldn't the effort be made?
The police routinely stop speeding drivers, even though there is no hope of eradicating that aspect of human behaviour. But the enforcement helps to keep it within bounds.
Wouldn't routine enforcement against street dealers have the same effect?
I note that one of the suburban cities, New Westminster, had a serious problem with dealers operating at the subway stations.
The police there began stopping and arresting these dealers on sight; they soon moved on. Yes, they moved to a different area within the larger metropolitan area, but that is one where the police enforcement isn't so certain.
Would these tactics not work for you in your jurisdiction?
Wow, coming as a simple westcountry boi this thread is something of a turnip for the books, wish we had intelligent and articulate coppers in Brissol
AP - can't you get off your soap box and be practical for a moment?
Short of totally re-ordering the state would you rather have somone with the views and intentions The Commander has expressed or some 'zero tolerance' (the self-evident idiocy of that phrase is hilarious) fuckwit in charge?
To get clichéd for a moment, this level of interaction is the revolution, the net's an enabler of all that great stuff you want to see, don't start pissing all over people trying something new before you've given them a chance.
Good luck to you all, I just hope you can sort some of this mess out cos it's getting pretty fucked up everywhere.
AP - can't you get off your soap box and be practical for a moment?
Short of totally re-ordering the state would you rather have somone with the views and intentions The Commander has expressed or some 'zero tolerance' (the self-evident idiocy of that phrase is hilarious) fuckwit in charge?
To get clichéd for a moment, this level of interaction is the revolution, the net's an enabler of all that great stuff you want to see, don't start pissing all over people trying something new before you've given them a chance.
Good luck to you all, I just hope you can sort some of this mess out cos it's getting pretty fucked up everywhere.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I think this is an excellent question. Maybe we could start a whole new thread on it?
(Incidentally, I mailed a link to this thread to my stepmother, who's spoken to Brian Paddick in the past. She says The Commander definitely sounds like him... but she was surprised that the press hadn't gotten hold of it and caused a fuss.)
twisted nerve
engineer without fear
twisted nerve
engineer without fear
That's the problem with Usenet, though.
<edited to add: I forgot this isn't Usenet, lol.>
[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: twisted nerve ]
<edited to add: I forgot this isn't Usenet, lol.>
[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: twisted nerve ]
Hatboy I can sort of answer a bit of your question. A certain Fubu wearer you know has been going regularly to meetings in Peckham that the police have organised, basically they invite local ethnic people to come along and talk openly and blatently about any issues concerning race etc. that they have with the Police, lunch and £15 thrown in. I think this sort of initiative is to be appauded its just a shame that it wasn't advertised better as Mr Fubu was quite often the only one there!
He is in fact at Hendon today taking part in racial training to new recruits from all around the country some of whom have never really had to deal with any one from other cultures, but who could well be placed in a London borough.
It seems quite a small but positive step to helping eradicate racism from the force
He is in fact at Hendon today taking part in racial training to new recruits from all around the country some of whom have never really had to deal with any one from other cultures, but who could well be placed in a London borough.
It seems quite a small but positive step to helping eradicate racism from the force
N
nicnic
Guest
Hi
My 2cents on how to clean up drug crime in Brixton and I hope the Commander is listening.
Increase the holding Cells at Gatwick Airport..
Customs are allowing large numbers of suspected “Swallower’s” through due to not having enough resource to hold them for the eventual movement. My understanding is that there are only 3-7 holding cells at Gatwick.
Traffickers are aware of this limit and are filling flights with “Swallower’s” in the certainty that some will
get through.
Nic
My 2cents on how to clean up drug crime in Brixton and I hope the Commander is listening.
Increase the holding Cells at Gatwick Airport..
Customs are allowing large numbers of suspected “Swallower’s” through due to not having enough resource to hold them for the eventual movement. My understanding is that there are only 3-7 holding cells at Gatwick.
Traffickers are aware of this limit and are filling flights with “Swallower’s” in the certainty that some will
get through.
Nic
TinyCrendon
New Member
[ I'll take back the methadone insult. (Its sick that docs hand it out tho) But not the patronising bit. If you dont want a reaction argue on the points I make not the ones I dont make. ]
The drug trade is NOT fuelled by small time no-marks flying in from JA with half a ki in their stomachs. This is street nothingness. An irrelevancy.
The real players bring in tonnage. Tonnes of gear. They are, in the main, organised criminals of the blue chip variety, governments and senior business people (see the arrest for example of the Pakistani shipping magnate with 12 tonnes of weed and smack on his barge in Copenhagen in 1999)
You can go on nicking the poor and weak for ever and you will NEVER stop drugs.
The drug trade is the third biggest on the planet and it ENDS UP IN BANKS. Not under someones bed in cash. It is a neccesity for the econmies of many countries.
This sort of naivety about the drug trade, the reason it is criminalised in the first place, and who benefits from the trade (mainly banks) is just plain out of date.
Drugs are polictical. They are the worlds second cuirrency behind the dollar with TRILLIONS of $$$ activity all over the word.
Its the biggest trade in Mexico outstripping the next three combined, it is 55% of Bolivia's GDP, in 1984 the UN estimated that drug money was BANKED at the rate of $2m AN HOUR, one of the biggest UK city banks is a drug bank, one of the biggest banks in the Americas is a drug bank run by a man who is the biggest drug profiteer in the world (and who met with Fox and Clinton after Fox became pres of mexico).
Why, for example, did Mike Grasso, head of the bank of New York fly into FARC land in order to meet Raul Reyes. So FARC - the peeps whop have legalised coca in Colombia -would bank with them. They refused.
Or one can fritter around at the edges going "ooh arent poor crack users scum. Lets make weed a class C."
You legalise everything or you give up.
The drug trade is NOT fuelled by small time no-marks flying in from JA with half a ki in their stomachs. This is street nothingness. An irrelevancy.
The real players bring in tonnage. Tonnes of gear. They are, in the main, organised criminals of the blue chip variety, governments and senior business people (see the arrest for example of the Pakistani shipping magnate with 12 tonnes of weed and smack on his barge in Copenhagen in 1999)
You can go on nicking the poor and weak for ever and you will NEVER stop drugs.
The drug trade is the third biggest on the planet and it ENDS UP IN BANKS. Not under someones bed in cash. It is a neccesity for the econmies of many countries.
This sort of naivety about the drug trade, the reason it is criminalised in the first place, and who benefits from the trade (mainly banks) is just plain out of date.
Drugs are polictical. They are the worlds second cuirrency behind the dollar with TRILLIONS of $$$ activity all over the word.
Its the biggest trade in Mexico outstripping the next three combined, it is 55% of Bolivia's GDP, in 1984 the UN estimated that drug money was BANKED at the rate of $2m AN HOUR, one of the biggest UK city banks is a drug bank, one of the biggest banks in the Americas is a drug bank run by a man who is the biggest drug profiteer in the world (and who met with Fox and Clinton after Fox became pres of mexico).
Why, for example, did Mike Grasso, head of the bank of New York fly into FARC land in order to meet Raul Reyes. So FARC - the peeps whop have legalised coca in Colombia -would bank with them. They refused.
Or one can fritter around at the edges going "ooh arent poor crack users scum. Lets make weed a class C."
You legalise everything or you give up.
T
TopCat2
Guest
Well Is it down Brixton way, stuffing represents a big source of coke to the "Jamaican" dealers...
I doubt they would go to the bother to bring in coke in this way if they had access to people with tons available. They probably don't have this access as the reputation for random irational violence precedes them.
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