Guardian infiltrates BNP
- Thread starter mutley
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The Black Hand
Unclean
MC5 said:That's obvious to most.
What's telling is no matter what Griffin does to try and turn the BNP into the respectable organisation he so desires, up pops some wannabe white supremacist to spoil the party.
Indeed, no break out of the ghetto there...
nightbreed
Im Bored
I have just read all the articles in the Guardian . I found it frightening because here in Southampton there are whole areas where I believe the BNP would make an impact.
After reading these articles , what depressed me most was what political opposition there is to the BNP?
Absolutely zero.
After reading these articles , what depressed me most was what political opposition there is to the BNP?
Absolutely zero.
nightbreed said:
I'm going to assume that what you really mean is that there is no opposition to them that you consider to be effective. Otherwise you're talking obvious bollocks.
The opposition that does exist:
1) The majority of people still would not vote for them in any circumstances. When that scary poll came out last year it said that 24% 'would consider' voting for them. So 76% would not, and many will be extremely passionate in that comitment, probably tactically voting in some circumstances. (no room for complacency - these figures can change..)
2) There are at least two significant networks (Searchlight and UAF) dedicated to mobilising against them, as well as smaller formations like 'antifa' that I know little about.
That is opposition. The efeectiveness of it is another matter.
There does seem to be a growing consensus that giving people an alternative is also now necessary. That's why Respect are setting up in B & D. Again, what kind of alternative is up for massive argument, but that an alternative needs to be provided for disaffected working class voters seems pretty much agreed by most people (except card-carrying nu laborites..).
golightly
Actively uneconomic
I have to say this is a truly rubbish article, as someone already said the BNP has been infiltrated for 7 months and this is all they can come up with. Most of the items mentioned such as giving the rule book only to members, using encryption for e-mails, and having rules for behaviour in meetings is no different than other political parties. There's a real danger of the article backfiring as the BNP can quite reasonably say, "don't other political parties do this, so why are you criticising us for only behaving like any other political party?" Don't you think that New Labour or the Tories have secret meetings?
The bit that interests me, though, is about the use of language in meetings. If it's true it could have an interesting effect on the thinking processes of the BNP. If you cannot use particular words then it's very hard to express the ideas associated with those words. If you cannot use the words "black" and "white" then that is one of the means of describing racist ideas removed from their meetings. It's possible that by aiming to become more acceptable the will have to jettison a lot of their racist ideas.
The bit that interests me, though, is about the use of language in meetings. If it's true it could have an interesting effect on the thinking processes of the BNP. If you cannot use particular words then it's very hard to express the ideas associated with those words. If you cannot use the words "black" and "white" then that is one of the means of describing racist ideas removed from their meetings. It's possible that by aiming to become more acceptable the will have to jettison a lot of their racist ideas.
i think you have something there, for example, its now difficult to call Gianfranco Fini of Italy's National Alliance, and a former Gov't minister a 'fascist', he even went on to declare in parliament in 19994: “Anti-fascism was an essential moment in Italy’s return to the values of democracy.” Though he is certainly an extreme right winger and up to his neck in the events of Genoa. There will be in any party some who want (some) power at any price and will gradually shift to the centre right and euro-nationalism as some will do because of more ideological motives. However, others will hate this 'realpolitik' and possibly a split will occur.
However, its looking increasingly likely the progressive left will not be an actor in any of this and will be on the sidelines, the far left shouting slogans and getting it completely wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianfranco_Fini
However, its looking increasingly likely the progressive left will not be an actor in any of this and will be on the sidelines, the far left shouting slogans and getting it completely wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianfranco_Fini
cockneyrebel
New Member
If there is a split I don't suppose Griffin will be bothered, it will probably get rid of some of more of the nutters.
I thought the articles in the Guardian were extremely poor given they've put 7 months of investigation into it, if anything just more publicity for the BNP. Also the Guardians answer to it all is a joke. Faith in the main stream parties has to be restored, you really couldn't make it up. They really are a bunch of muppets. Mind you not any different from UAFs vote anyone but BNP line really.
I think that Griffin could be right about the economics. Capitalism has been in a global boom for a while now and I don't think things will collapse in the next few years, but given the make up of the global economy the next recession could be a huge one.
In terms of an alternative to the BNP from the left, at the moment it's pathetically weak. Will see how RESPECT do in B&D, I'd be stunned if they end up doing well.
I thought the articles in the Guardian were extremely poor given they've put 7 months of investigation into it, if anything just more publicity for the BNP. Also the Guardians answer to it all is a joke. Faith in the main stream parties has to be restored, you really couldn't make it up. They really are a bunch of muppets. Mind you not any different from UAFs vote anyone but BNP line really.
I think that Griffin could be right about the economics. Capitalism has been in a global boom for a while now and I don't think things will collapse in the next few years, but given the make up of the global economy the next recession could be a huge one.
In terms of an alternative to the BNP from the left, at the moment it's pathetically weak. Will see how RESPECT do in B&D, I'd be stunned if they end up doing well.
nightbreed
Im Bored
mutley said:
Whoah Mutley. Yep your right that is bollox.
Please amend to 'socialist' opposition.
Thanks
maximilian ping
Grrrrr
MC5 said:
i think the writer is alluding to it being like coming out of closet etc
Searchlight
Had to laugh when it was mentioned that Searchlight is dedicated to mobilising against the BNP, don't know what planet some folks have been living on, SL are only dedicated about one thing and that's selling their mostly made up stories to the press...oh...and giving snippets of info about the left to you know who.
Incidentally, thought the Guardian article a load of crap, it took then 7 months to get that together ? Can't believe the reporter didn't dig up anything juicer than that.
Had to laugh when it was mentioned that Searchlight is dedicated to mobilising against the BNP, don't know what planet some folks have been living on, SL are only dedicated about one thing and that's selling their mostly made up stories to the press...oh...and giving snippets of info about the left to you know who.
Incidentally, thought the Guardian article a load of crap, it took then 7 months to get that together ? Can't believe the reporter didn't dig up anything juicer than that.
untethered
For industry & decency
Reese said:
It's possible that they suspected him and kept him away from anything incriminating. It's also possible that these days, what you see is what you get with the BNP - campaigning for racist policies in an entirely legal manner.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Welcome to U75, Reese. You can claim your complementary HobNobs from Mr Dubversion, who will be along shortly, but you are not encouraged to lend him any money. Use of the letter "I" is welcomed here when employing nouns in the first person singular.Reese said:
Attica wrote
If u really r interested here's a link to amazon for the version I saw-all good class-conscious stuff
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spartacus-B.../ref=sr_1_1/203-7434316-2503104?ie=UTF8&s=dvd
Attica said:
If u really r interested here's a link to amazon for the version I saw-all good class-conscious stuff
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spartacus-B.../ref=sr_1_1/203-7434316-2503104?ie=UTF8&s=dvd
The Black Hand
Unclean
Summithop said:
I am interested in all expressions of class consciousness, so I will gan an av a look
scott_forester
probably talking shite
cemertyone said:
+1 Even dumb people should be allowed to vote.
kyser_soze said:
Could you explain your thinking here? It just seems like McCarthyism to me.
I should really start at the bottom postings and read up! I am glad that the McCarthy sentiment from kyser_soze was withdrawn. Honest of him and the right decision.
I had a problem with the Guardian giving employment details of named individuals who are in the BNP. I don't think people should be discriminated against or harassed by employers on account of their political views. If you look at the roots of McCarthyism in the Dies Commission you will see that it was supported by many on the Left because they thought it was aimed at Nazi Bundists. Unfortunately for them the target got bigger and bigger and ended up including themselves. A lesson from history perhaps?
I shall be emailing the employers concerned stating that whilst I disagree with the BNP I would not want anyone, Communist, Socialist, Muslim activist discriminated against at work for political reasons.
BTW I note that according to page 6 of the latest Private Eye the Guardian itself has just paid out £30,000 to a Muslim activist in an out-of-court settlement for this sort of behaviour. Pip! Pip!
I looked up the profile of the journalist on the Guardian website and for someone who doesn't like secrecy he doesn't exactly give much information. I also don't find it odd in the circumstances that the BNP seek to keep membership information confidential. Isn't that a requirement under the Data Protection Act anyway?
Because of my personal history (of which some of you are aware) I don't suppose that my views on this will come as a shock.
I had a problem with the Guardian giving employment details of named individuals who are in the BNP. I don't think people should be discriminated against or harassed by employers on account of their political views. If you look at the roots of McCarthyism in the Dies Commission you will see that it was supported by many on the Left because they thought it was aimed at Nazi Bundists. Unfortunately for them the target got bigger and bigger and ended up including themselves. A lesson from history perhaps?
I shall be emailing the employers concerned stating that whilst I disagree with the BNP I would not want anyone, Communist, Socialist, Muslim activist discriminated against at work for political reasons.
BTW I note that according to page 6 of the latest Private Eye the Guardian itself has just paid out £30,000 to a Muslim activist in an out-of-court settlement for this sort of behaviour. Pip! Pip!
I looked up the profile of the journalist on the Guardian website and for someone who doesn't like secrecy he doesn't exactly give much information. I also don't find it odd in the circumstances that the BNP seek to keep membership information confidential. Isn't that a requirement under the Data Protection Act anyway?
Because of my personal history (of which some of you are aware) I don't suppose that my views on this will come as a shock.
This was an interesting pair of articles, and portrayed life in the BNP as security concious (which they need to be in view of the beatings given to them by AFA, and state interest in the BNP) , but no more so than any radical group should be
what has amused me is the state of denial of the left who seem to want to disbelive this article- and are not attracted to it as it isnt full of the usual "exposes of BNP criminality". the reality is, the BNP do not spend their time plotting where to site gas chambers, but in leafletting, door to door paper sales and socialising in pubs as their usual activities.
the bnp we shoudl be fighting is the one decribed in this article- and not of the hollywood nutzi stereotype of the UAF/Searchlight/SWP mindset.
searchlight for one have behaved very grumpily over this article, with gerry gable being quoted int he mail after these article saying the BNP do not have middle class support, but are, in his words "lumpen proletariat"- which is just a week after a searchlight model campaign countering the BNP in the Epping Forest- Grange Hill by-election on the 14th December - which turned in a first-time BNP vote of 19.5% in yet another solidly middle class ward
what has amused me is the state of denial of the left who seem to want to disbelive this article- and are not attracted to it as it isnt full of the usual "exposes of BNP criminality". the reality is, the BNP do not spend their time plotting where to site gas chambers, but in leafletting, door to door paper sales and socialising in pubs as their usual activities.
the bnp we shoudl be fighting is the one decribed in this article- and not of the hollywood nutzi stereotype of the UAF/Searchlight/SWP mindset.
searchlight for one have behaved very grumpily over this article, with gerry gable being quoted int he mail after these article saying the BNP do not have middle class support, but are, in his words "lumpen proletariat"- which is just a week after a searchlight model campaign countering the BNP in the Epping Forest- Grange Hill by-election on the 14th December - which turned in a first-time BNP vote of 19.5% in yet another solidly middle class ward
JimPage said:
I can see why a lot of people on the left are in denial about this article, as in my experience at least, you only have to scratch the surface and you'll find a fair amount of prejudice against the white working class - a section of society the left has never felt really comfortable with, IMHO. They have always assumed that there is some kind of automatic and natural link between the far right and the white working class.
Yet serious study of any facist or nationalist movement will show that they do appeal to the middle classes as well. With contemporary politics focusing around issues of identity and fear, it is hardly surprising that the politics of the far right, with its strong restorationist, backward looking sentiments, is going to have an appeal to a middle class that feels the country has lost its bearings. Given that the left sees politics through the prisim of culture and identity, it shouldn't come as any shock that the far right, which has always been more open about its use of sentiment and emotion, is also going to focus its attention on culture. Hence the appeal to sections of the middle class that many thought would have run a mile at the mention of the BNP.
Clear evidence that the BNP is not a party that is solely aiming its efforts at the white working class but one that is making a pitch for what it sees as a fearful and disorientated middle class. A clear case of them seeing identity as trumping any notion of class.
They must think they have a potentially successful strategy here. But any overly obvious lurch towards attracting a more middle class element to their ranks does leave a chink in the armour for any progressive working class organisation that has the political nous to exploit it. This could prove to be interesting...
searchlight for one have behaved very grumpily over this article, with gerry gable being quoted int he mail after these article saying the BNP do not have middle class support, but are, in his words "lumpen proletariat"- which is just a week after a searchlight model campaign countering the BNP in the Epping Forest- Grange Hill by-election on the 14th December - which turned in a first-time BNP vote of 19.5% in yet another solidly middle class ward[/QUOTE]
The social base of fascism is itself in contradiction: the petty bourgeoisie asserts its anger against capitalism by crushing the only social class that can defeat capitalism. Trotsky
i thought it was accepted wisdom on the left that the mass base on which fascism depends in order to crush the working class is a combination of lumpen elements along with disaffected sections of the middle class
The social base of fascism is itself in contradiction: the petty bourgeoisie asserts its anger against capitalism by crushing the only social class that can defeat capitalism. Trotsky
i thought it was accepted wisdom on the left that the mass base on which fascism depends in order to crush the working class is a combination of lumpen elements along with disaffected sections of the middle class
jackdoor said:
The social base of fascism is itself in contradiction: the petty bourgeoisie asserts its anger against capitalism by crushing the only social class that can defeat capitalism. Trotsky
i thought it was accepted wisdom on the left that the mass base on which fascism depends in order to crush the working class is a combination of lumpen elements along with disaffected sections of the middle class[/QUOTE]
What would we call them if they decided they had more in common with the working class than the Capitialists?
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
I really don't understand your argument. the BNP have the democratic right to lobby the National trust to discriminate against gay couples using their facilities, a democratic right which they have taken up in national campaign. Why shouldn't gays have the same rights, for example calling National trust not to allow the BNP to use their facilities? If the BNP have the right to lobby for discrimination, then why can't those who oppose them reciprocate? in my opinion, this is nothing to do with state bans, McCarthyism, this is ordinary citizens intervening in the political process.cemertyone said:
The BNP only have these rights because we have fought for them, if they had their way WE wouldn't have them.
icepick said:
if i am misinterpreting you i apologise, but can`t you see the value of an article on the BNP which clearly wasn`t a hatchet job on them to undermine their support, but was a clear challenge to the left to understand exactly what their tactics are. can you only see the use of an article by way of it`s propaganda value against them, soem juicy quotes to put in leaflets for May 2007 or whatever?
the journalist, and the guardian, may have done a great service to anti-fascism by printing this article
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