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Guaranteed Minimum Wage: Good or Bad?

would you change your mind if a flat tax- which shouldn't have any loopholes, and should be much cheaper to collect- actually increased the income to the exchequer?

Bastard!! I honestly don't know. My position on taxes is complex - I'm against them on the principle that I should not be forced by law to give money to the government at all since what I earn is my money. In practise (please note halfwits - principle=ideal state of affairs/practice=pain in the ass real world) Obviously in practise I pay taxes because stupidly or not I believe that certain services such as healthcare are social needs and should be funded centrally via taxation.

I also believe that those most able to pay should pay more - and believe me its a painful belief on my payslips some months!! Seeing 40% of your salary going to the govt is not always a pleasant experience. And obviously that those earning least should pay the least amount in taxes.

If there was irrefutable proof showing that flat tax would increase treasury funds...I honestly don't know. In general I come down in favour of the principle of progressive taxation being more important but IRL I honestly don't know if I'd turn down an extra £500 a month...
 
kyser_soze said:
I also believe that those most able to pay should pay more - and believe me its a painful belief on my payslips some months!! Seeing 40% of your salary going to the govt is not always a pleasant experience. And obviously that those earning least should pay the least amount in taxes.

assuming there are no loopholes and no exemptions, those earning most pay most and those earning least pay least. That condition, which is obviously right and fair, is satisfied, possibly more than in a lot of cases today .
 
Epicurus said:
Thanks for your thoughts but it doesn’t answer my question, I’m interested in if it had a much wider effect than just people on the minimum wages?

no it hasn't effectily incereased waages in alot of cases longer term i has caused wages to remain stagnenet or longer term not keep up with inflation as the minimum wages hasn't kept up with in flation. also uit's a tired and punative system, employee under 21 (dispite the coming of age at 18) have a lower minimum wage that over 21's thus creating a tired wages system even with in the minimum wage bracket and contray to the possiblity of the wage increasing when you hit 21 you are usually fired just beofre that point on some technicallity which you are too young to fight and so don't get anything...

over all wages at the lower end of the scale have now remained stagnent for about 5 to 8 years and any time you would ask for a raise the argument is what you want more you're getting more than minimum wage "we don't have to pay you this much, you know" Low paid jobs as much as all jobs but particularlly low wages ones have a real ethic it of take it or fuck off some one else will do it if you don't want the cash... which generally means that the low waged are the most under represented in the enitre labour market place, weak powerless and in poverty... hoorah for the free market system...

what the minimum wages doens't take care of is the cash in hand jobs either meaning that thouse who are thinking haha i'm not paying tax on the tenner that this twat whose wover working me is paying at least i get a tenner also then don't get any national insurence paid by the enmployer and therefore have diffculties later on in life with pensions or beifits cos they haven't paid their stamp.

again this generally applies to younger employees and also woman of ethnic backgrounds which again get stuff twice by the pvoerty trap... not being paid an hoest wage for an honest days work and also not havign their stamp paid so they are then fucked later on in life...

seems the day's of the tollpuddle maryters hasn't really gone away...
 
Epicurus said:
Thanks for your thoughts but it doesn’t answer my question, I’m interested in if it had a much wider effect than just people on the minimum wages?

Sorry epicurus,
The minimum wage has had a wider effect many employers like McDonalds and the supermarkets etc,really want to be seen to be paying above the minimum wage. So all their wages have gone up. And with the minimum wage rising by 20% in 2 years it has been good news for lots of workers.
Millions of people have benefited either directly or indirectly from the minimum wage and the minimum income guarantee.
 
Epicurus said:
Would support for it not be decided by the level it was paid at?

If it was set high would it not then drive wages up? After all if you were earning 24,000 pa and could live on it reasonable well you would be able to decide if you wanted to work at all and you would be able to chose NOT to take a low paid job and therefore employers would have to pay a wage that people thought was worth working for.

I can hear some people saying but no-one would work and that wouldn’t be the case I think ; loads of people would still work as they would want extra’s; just like now people who don’t need to do overtime for that little bit extra.


How about incentive? If you work, you get to keep the first 100. per week. Then you get to keep 75% of the next 100. Then 50% of the next and so on. Give people incentive to work and they will. :)
 
dumbo said:
How about incentive? If you work, you get to keep the first 100. per week. Then you get to keep 75% of the next 100. Then 50% of the next and so on. Give people incentive to work and they will. :)
I’m not sure I understand your point
 
dumbo said:
How about incentive? If you work, you get to keep the first 100. per week. Then you get to keep 75% of the next 100. Then 50% of the next and so on. Give people incentive to work and they will. :)


I liked this point. Why dont people understand it?
 
tbaldwin said:
Basic income for everyone + the chance of earning more on top with progressive tax.

:o

For some bizarre reason, I thought that the money was going to the employer not the tax man.

:confused: Isn't it like that already? Here, when you fill in your taxes, you are allowed a basic amount that is tax-free and then the percentage of tax you pay is gradually increased based on your income.
 
Epicurus said:
I’m not sure I understand your point
What I meant was that if you have a guaranteed minimum wage, but you still don't make what someone allowed to sit on the system would make, let them keep some of their money, get some self esteem back about working at all, and eventually they will be off the system and totally self sufficient.
In Canada, if you earn minimum wage full-time, you still don't equal what a family of 4 would earn on welfare, not working.
 
kyser_soze said:
Bastard!! I honestly don't know. My position on taxes is complex - I'm against them on the principle that I should not be forced by law to give money to the government at all since what I earn is my money. In practise (please note halfwits - principle=ideal state of affairs/practice=pain in the ass real world) Obviously in practise I pay taxes because stupidly or not I believe that certain services such as healthcare are social needs and should be funded centrally via taxation.

I also believe that those most able to pay should pay more - and believe me its a painful belief on my payslips some months!! Seeing 40% of your salary going to the govt is not always a pleasant experience. And obviously that those earning least should pay the least amount in taxes.

If there was irrefutable proof showing that flat tax would increase treasury funds...I honestly don't know. In general I come down in favour of the principle of progressive taxation being more important but IRL I honestly don't know if I'd turn down an extra £500 a month...
Well, of course, it's all a fiction anyway isn't it - the paycheque before tax is taken out is just a reflection of market forces, other taxes, amounts people are being bribed, how many taxis your boss sees fit to take each month, the social status of your job etc etc. Income tax is just one part of the whole, and without income tax it's debatable whether you'd ever be in a position to earn what you do in the first place. "I don't like paying tax because it reduces the amount of money I get" is rational, but I don't think there's a moral element, not unless you've got a concrete and justifiable formula that turns work-value into financial-value, in which case I suggest you start a fifty-page thread on the subject that claims to prove the existence of God.
 
The National Minimum Wage is a joke.
A horrible joke!

Far too may people are being paid far to much money for the miserable efforts they manage to make.

There are people out there who aren't worth a quid an hour but now they get paid a lot more than that.

On paper it looks all very nice - in reality it is despicable!
 
BettyBoop said:
The National Minimum Wage is a joke.
A horrible joke!

Far too may people are being paid far to much money for the miserable efforts they manage to make.

There are people out there who aren't worth a quid an hour but now they get paid a lot more than that.

On paper it looks all very nice - in reality it is despicable!

The national minimum is 4.85 per hour and an employee would have to work exceptionally slow not to make product of less than than that in value in 1 hour.

If a company has its work procedures developed then there is no way anyone should produce less than 4.85 worth of work in an hour.

In some factories I have worked (in the automotive sector) even an exceptionally slow worker would produce a few hundred pounds worth of product in a matter of minutes or thousands of pounds worth in an hour.

The particular company I worked at employed a few hundred workers at minimum wage and made profits in the 100's of million. Possibly equivilent of half a million profit per employee.

In that context 4.85 seems a pittance and in no way can it be said that the employees are being paid their worth.

On the other side of the coin from manufacturing is of course consumption- there is no good producing a product if no one can afford to buy them, increases in the minimum wage above inflation increase purchasing power in real terms. The ability to purchase and the act of purchasing stimulates growth in the retail, distribution, transportation and manufacturing sectors. Thus guaranteeing business for the profiteers.

If you pay workers a quid an hour to make cars you will make cars more cheaply but they will never realise a profit until sold. People on less than a quid an hour do not buy new cars either by cash purchase or by credit arrangement.

I know directors and shareholders seek to maximize their profits but if they cannot show a healthy return after employing people on the 4.85 miimum then they should take a serious look at their business plan and maybe consider
another business.

Much was made of the minimum wage and small businesses. How small business will be hurt. But again it is not the minimum wage that is the problem for small business but intense competition from multinationals that is the biggest problems eg the relationship between milk producers and the supermarkets. If anything the minimum wage often guarantees for small business that at least some people are able to buy the product.

If the minimum wage is cut the effect on purchasing power decreases forcing small business to cut its prices to sell. In the terms of sole traders it may result in them too having to cut their own wage. No one for example is going to pay 25-50% of their hourly wage on a pint of milk. Can farmers really afford to cut prices much further?

As much as I am sure it pains employers to pay 4.85 an hour if they paid much less then many of them (particulary sole traders and small business) would find themselves going to the wall.

It is when you only look at the minimum wage from one side- ie that of the producer discounting the role of the purchaser that it seems like a pure cost, but when it increases purchasing power it should be seens as to the benefit of small business.

While small business is often most vocal about the minimum wage and its effect it is small business that gains most from it. It is big business that gains more from it being cut, ie by increasing market share where small business is forced from the market.
 
BettyBoop said:
The National Minimum Wage is a joke.
A horrible joke!

Far too may people are being paid far to much money for the miserable efforts they manage to make.

There are people out there who aren't worth a quid an hour but now they get paid a lot more than that.

On paper it looks all very nice - in reality it is despicable!

I assume this post is a sick joke, unless your talking about the royal family or our MP's.
If a job can't pay £5(or 10 in my book), it ain't worth doing.
 
BettyBoop said:
The National Minimum Wage is a joke.
A horrible joke!

Far too may people are being paid far to much money for the miserable efforts they manage to make.

There are people out there who aren't worth a quid an hour but now they get paid a lot more than that.

On paper it looks all very nice - in reality it is despicable!

You're not very good at trolling, are you?

Miind you, I would've thought you'd be in favour of a minimum wage, what with you being a 50p a pop whore. Even with a throughput of 9 customers an hour (which is of course based on you not being so plug-ugly that most of your clients wilt when seeing you naked) you'd still be 35p an hour better off.

By the way, if you'd actually made a case for the minimum wage being too high I wouldn't have had to reveal your true profesion, but given that all you did was vomit out a few stereotypes fresh from the annals of the CBI, I thought that letting everyone know you're a cheap tart was justified. :)
 
HUH! is that your best shot?
Methinks your powder is dry.

The national minimum wage was and still is a con.
It raised people into the tax threshold which was all the government intended.
It also meant that workers who had a safe little job sweeping up, all they could manage whether due to physical or mental inability, suddenly had to be paid a whopping wage when their contribution to the business was basically nil.

The great British workman, who likes to do as little as possible for as much as possible. Nobody wants to be a drone anymore, maybe no-one ever did want to be. Everyone has this belief that they are entitled to flat screen tellies, cars, holidays etc whether or not they are actually capable of earning the necessary to achieve their aspirations.

Some people will never be anything more than sweepers/loo cleaners/bin emptiers et al. They should accept their place in the big scheme instead of expecting everyone else to carry them and sub them through life.

A business which has to pay the 40 year old, introverted, mummies boy, the NM to sweep the floor can't afford to pay the efficient, capable, hard working, useful shop assistant as much as he/she is worth in comparison to the floor sweeper.
 
BettyBoop said:
HUH! is that your best shot?
Methinks your powder is dry.

The national minimum wage was and still is a con.
It raised people into the tax threshold which was all the government intended.
It also meant that workers who had a safe little job sweeping up, all they could manage whether due to physical or mental inability, suddenly had to be paid a whopping wage when their contribution to the business was basically nil.

The great British workman, who likes to do as little as possible for as much as possible. Nobody wants to be a drone anymore, maybe no-one ever did want to be. Everyone has this belief that they are entitled to flat screen tellies, cars, holidays etc whether or not they are actually capable of earning the necessary to achieve their aspirations.

Some people will never be anything more than sweepers/loo cleaners/bin emptiers et al. They should accept their place in the big scheme instead of expecting everyone else to carry them and sub them through life.

A business which has to pay the 40 year old, introverted, mummies boy, the NM to sweep the floor can't afford to pay the efficient, capable, hard working, useful shop assistant as much as he/she is worth in comparison to the floor sweeper.


You still haven't made a case though, have you?

Come on, try harder. Surely someone who believes they have such a fine and accurate understanding of how the world works can do that?

Because all you've done is trot out a few more trite guffs of rightwing flatus, larded with a few small nuggets of class hatred.
 
BettyBoop said:
Neither a piss up nor a meal out are necessities of life!

Do you "get by" on the necessities of life?
Perhaps you're one of those "movers and shakers" who believe that they're entitled to the fruits of their labours?

Whichever, you're still no better than the people you insist on knocking, in fact you may be worse: You appear to have the education to be able to discern that you suffer from an irrational dislike of members of certain social groups, and yet you still do it. That would make you an informed bigot rather than an uneducated one.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Because all you've done is trot out a few more trite guffs of rightwing flatus, larded with a few small nuggets of class hatred.

Bettyboop's contribution has reminded why I have this terrible urge to hang tories from the nearest tree.
 
tobyjug said:
Bettyboop's contribution has reminded why I have this terrible urge to hang tories from the nearest tree.

I know the feeling.
My own theory is that many tories sublimate their self-hatred by turning it on those who can't fight back, immigrants, the disabled etc. That way they don't have to look in the mirror and see the putridness behind their pisshole eyes.

Hanging's a waste of good rope though. I prefer high-altitude defenestration.
 
My! My!

I surf the net, find a forum site, register, make a few points and I am PM'd that this is perhaps not the site for me. In threads I am told in a roundabout way I should be hung, it is implied that I am right wing (I'm not I do not participate in politics per se), and all sorts of other crap.

What is it? Is this not really a forum just a club for clones or something where everyone thinks the same thoughts.

Ha Ha Ha. I bet most of you think you're worth the NM wage. In fact most of you think your worth more so you all sit on your arses all day and let the rest of us pay you to do so.

Obviously this is left wing self congratulation zone and even though I am definitely not a Tory I am just as definitely not a Liberal or Labour orientated individual either.

See you on the lifeboats, if you can get a space once all the scum have got seats.
 
BettyBoop said:
The great British workman, who likes to do as little as possible for as much as possible.
.

Sounds like our business leaders, but they want to rip everyone off in the whole world.
Fuck off your boring.
 
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