Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Griffin prevented from lecturing at my University

No hang on, you said there was a hypocrisy in supporting a no-platform position for the BNP and a no-platform position for the libertarian alliance at anarchist organised events. So, tell me exactly where the hypocrisy that you got yourself so excited at discovering is. Not all this other flannel about some wider issues that you've hastily constructed once you've realised that there's zero hypocrisy or contradication entailed in supporting both of the postions that you seem to believe are opposed to each other. They are utterly consistent.
 
torres said:
No hang on, you said there was a hypocrisy in supporting a no-platform position for the BNP and a no-platform position for the libertarian alliance at anarchist organised events. So, tell me exactly where the hypocrisy that you got yourself so excited at discovering is. Not all this other flannel about some wider issues that you've hastily constructed once you've realised that there's zero hypocrisy or contradication entailed in supporting both of the postions that you seem to believe are opposed to each other. They are utterly consistent.

You're right - "no platform" for BNP and "no platform" for LA is entirely consistent.

I've constructed nothing new. The first time I looked at this thread I thought here is more of the same kind of hypocritical dogma I've come to expect from many people who call themselves "anarchists". If you consider yourself and anarchist and also support the 'no-platform' position then you open up a whole plethora of very difficult questions indeed. At least the socialists are consistent in that they envisage some kind of central "authority" that "knows better".

When I read that the LA had been kicked out it looked like exactly the same hypocritical phenomenon so I decided to comment on it.
 
The Iron Fist of the Peoples State!

Under true socialism the BNP and the Libertarian Alliance would be not only "no platformed" but also forcefully repressed.

And so for that matter would the anarchist bookfair. And all other anarchist events, groups etc.

And torres.

And Darios

Now THAT is consistency. :cool:

Here's a pinko:

lenin1.jpg
 
Darios said:
This is the same tired disingenuous dogma that is repeated ad infinitum in response to some pretty hard questions that anarchists need to consider. (It doesn't matter whether you consider yourself an anarchist or not, you're the one presenting the arguments)

What on earth is anarchism aiming at other than about as an "unregulated" society as its possible to achieve?

You deliberately ignored my points about "free market capitalism", Anarchists and right wing libertarians and the tensions between the three.

You also ignore the fact that anarchists are ideologically different from right wing libertarians. The latter fully supports the free market, while the former works against capitalism. Is it that so difficult to understand?
 
Darios said:
You're right - "no platform" for BNP and "no platform" for LA is entirely consistent.

I've constructed nothing new. The first time I looked at this thread I thought here is more of the same kind of hypocritical dogma I've come to expect from many people who call themselves "anarchists". If you consider yourself and anarchist and also support the 'no-platform' position then you open up a whole plethora of very difficult questions indeed. At least the socialists are consistent in that they envisage some kind of central "authority" that "knows better".

When I read that the LA had been kicked out it looked like exactly the same hypocritical phenomenon so I decided to comment on it.

So, by the same token, would you get just as upset if a bunch of national anarchists had been turfed out of the book fair? Btw, isn't national anarchism a bit of a contradiction?
 
Azrael said:
Freedom is speech is the freedom to give any opinion you choose without being punished by the law. It is not the freedom to call your boss a cunt, tempting as that may be. So far as I'm aware, there's no "call your boss a cunt" exception for members of the BNP, England First, or any rag-tag facist set-up.

No, you are free to call him that but he's also free to sack you for it.
 
TAE said:
I think both sides in this argument have good points. On the one hand I would not want to restrict the free speech of anyone, on the other hand I do not want the fascists poisoning the minds of those around me. Tough call.

But then you're saying that "those around you" don't have the intelligence and discernment to make up their own minds on the issues.
 
nino_savatte said:
You deliberately ignored my points about "free market capitalism", Anarchists and right wing libertarians and the tensions between the three.

No, I pointed out how the ideological tension, particularly for the anarcho-capitalists, is laughable. The tension comes from the mainstream anarchists and not vice versa; its ostracism on the basis of dogmas inherited - and kept - from the socialists when the anarchists first separated themselves from the former.

If the ideological difference amounts to the fact that the libertarians (mini-archists) want to maintain a minimal state, then in terms of end goals that's a clear ideological difference. What baffles me however is that anarchists of all stripes aim at the destruction / removal of state power and yet are willing to work with socialists who, ostensibly, maintain that a relatively strong state, properly directed, is the solution. Meanwhile libertarians (mini-archists) seek, like the anarchists, to massively curtail state power, though they stop short of complete curtailment. Now who, 'on paper' has more in common with the mainstream anarchists?

It's nothing more than a historically embedded dogma that mainstream anarchists need to grow out of, or quite possibly wither and die from their irrelevance.

nino_savatte said:
You also ignore the fact that anarchists are ideologically different from right wing libertarians. The latter fully supports the free market, while the former works against capitalism. Is it that so difficult to understand?

Ideologically different from libertarians (mini-archists) yes; from anarcho-capitalists though, no. The reasoning for the exclusion of the latter is completely specious (and the reasoning behind removing the former is at least suspect given the regular collaboration with socialists for the reason identified above). They (anarcho-capitalists) support 'free-markets' and often, a modest conception of private property - oh noes!

I chuckle on most occasions when I see the terms 'free-market' and 'capitalism' used. They're handed over by left wingers as somehow self-evident terms in a way I can only describe as childish. Take "capitalism" - sometimes it is used as a noun, sometimes a verb, sometimes an adjective. What a busy little word! When pressed many self described left-wing people I encounter cannot articulate a definition of 'capitalism' that is also coherent with their other views. It's used in conversation as if everyone present shares the same definition.

In practice what it roughly seems to correspond to is "everything I don't like". This is where the childish part comes in - it's simply childish to offer up such a term as self-evident (self evident in terms of both definition and it's undesirability). Many anarcho-capitalists and libertarians make a distinction between the kind of 'capitalism' that is a state-backed monopoly - which is usually the type that is objected to - and the kind of capitalism that occurs on a micro economic scale between individuals. You'd know that if you'd engaged with their literature.

So, if what is being advocated in terms of 'free market' economics by the anarcho-caps and by some (by no means all) mini-archists is the free exchange of goods and ideas between individuals, with the allowance for a modest concept of private property (usually centering around notions of labour, subjective value and reasonable use). If the economy of an anarchist society is intended to be 'regulated' (as opposed to the "evil" unregulated kind that is actually the logical conclusion of anarchism) then you must invoke some kind of regulatory authority - voila! No anarchism.

Therefore the exclusion and ostracism of libertarians (mini-archists) while not theoretically inconsistent with the anarchist position (no state vs mini-state) is inconsistent in practical terms for the reasons outlined above. The exclusion and osctracism of anarcho-capitalists however is nothing more than an irrational and dogmatic prejudice that highlights a deep seated hypocrisy in many mainstream anarchists.
 
Darios, with respect, your post comes across as rather ill informed, if I am understanding it correctly.

In order to address your post, I have reversed the order of your points. I haven't done this to be disingenuous, just so my response makes sense.

I chuckle on most occasions when I see the terms 'free-market' and 'capitalism' used. They're handed over by left wingers as somehow self-evident terms in a way I can only describe as childish. Take "capitalism" - sometimes it is used as a noun, sometimes a verb, sometimes an adjective. What a busy little word! When pressed many self described left-wing people I encounter cannot articulate a definition of 'capitalism' that is also coherent with their other views. It's used in conversation as if everyone present shares the same definition.
Surely this is rubbish? Socialist worker has always made it quite clear to me that capitalism is one particular set of social relations, that has superseded, in this country at least, feudalism. It is one particular set of social relations in "The history of all hitherto existing society, the history of class rule", to paraphrase.

So explanation. Feudalism equals: a ruling class owning the means of production, the land. A producing class with control over the production process but compelled to give over a portion of their labour to the ruling class because of the ruling classes control of the means of production, the peasantry. Superseded by: capitalism: a ruling class owning the means of production, the land factories research etc. A producing class, having no control over the means of production, with only the right to sell their labour to the capitalist class because of the capitalist classes control of the means of production, the working class. Feudalism and capitalism therefore are quite simply different types of social relations, and so different forms of society.

If the ideological difference amounts to the fact that the libertarians (mini-archists) want to maintain a minimal state, then in terms of end goals that's a clear ideological difference. What baffles me however is that anarchists of all stripes aim at the destruction / removal of state power and yet are willing to work with socialists who, ostensibly, maintain that a relatively strong state, properly directed, is the solution. Meanwhile libertarians (mini-archists) seek, like the anarchists, to massively curtail state power, though they stop short of complete curtailment. Now who, 'on paper' has more in common with the mainstream anarchists?
Surely this is a distortion of the truth?

Both the anarchists and socialists have said, in a situation where there is a residue of bourgeois force/opposition, workers should claim the monopoly right to the use of violence (The State: that body which claims the monopoly right to the use of violence.) Both the anarchists and the socialist claim this should be done through workers militias, who are rotated and so do not operate as a standing force. Both anarchists and socialists see this as a TEMPORARY period, a period of process, social revolution in action, that will lead to anarchism/communism. Anarchism/Communism: both in my mind representing the same thing, a completely different set of social relations. A situation where there is no class of owners and/or controllers of the means of production, and so no ruling class.

the main point being for both, but especially for the socialist, that any remnants of state is purely temporary, whilst any bourgeois forces remain, and seen as a stepping stone to a classless dateless society/set of social relations. Socialist Worker in particular make this clear by distinguishing the period when there will be a worker's state, socialism, from the following period, communism.
 
Darios said:
No, I pointed out how the ideological tension, particularly for the anarcho-capitalists, is laughable. The tension comes from the mainstream anarchists and not vice versa; its ostracism on the basis of dogmas inherited - and kept - from the socialists when the anarchists first separated themselves from the former.

If the ideological difference amounts to the fact that the libertarians (mini-archists) want to maintain a minimal state, then in terms of end goals that's a clear ideological difference. What baffles me however is that anarchists of all stripes aim at the destruction / removal of state power and yet are willing to work with socialists who, ostensibly, maintain that a relatively strong state, properly directed, is the solution. Meanwhile libertarians (mini-archists) seek, like the anarchists, to massively curtail state power, though they stop short of complete curtailment. Now who, 'on paper' has more in common with the mainstream anarchists?

It's nothing more than a historically embedded dogma that mainstream anarchists need to grow out of, or quite possibly wither and die from their irrelevance.



Ideologically different from libertarians (mini-archists) yes; from anarcho-capitalists though, no. The reasoning for the exclusion of the latter is completely specious (and the reasoning behind removing the former is at least suspect given the regular collaboration with socialists for the reason identified above). They (anarcho-capitalists) support 'free-markets' and often, a modest conception of private property - oh noes!

I chuckle on most occasions when I see the terms 'free-market' and 'capitalism' used. They're handed over by left wingers as somehow self-evident terms in a way I can only describe as childish. Take "capitalism" - sometimes it is used as a noun, sometimes a verb, sometimes an adjective. What a busy little word! When pressed many self described left-wing people I encounter cannot articulate a definition of 'capitalism' that is also coherent with their other views. It's used in conversation as if everyone present shares the same definition.

In practice what it roughly seems to correspond to is "everything I don't like". This is where the childish part comes in - it's simply childish to offer up such a term as self-evident (self evident in terms of both definition and it's undesirability). Many anarcho-capitalists and libertarians make a distinction between the kind of 'capitalism' that is a state-backed monopoly - which is usually the type that is objected to - and the kind of capitalism that occurs on a micro economic scale between individuals. You'd know that if you'd engaged with their literature.

So, if what is being advocated in terms of 'free market' economics by the anarcho-caps and by some (by no means all) mini-archists is the free exchange of goods and ideas between individuals, with the allowance for a modest concept of private property (usually centering around notions of labour, subjective value and reasonable use). If the economy of an anarchist society is intended to be 'regulated' (as opposed to the "evil" unregulated kind that is actually the logical conclusion of anarchism) then you must invoke some kind of regulatory authority - voila! No anarchism.

Therefore the exclusion and ostracism of libertarians (mini-archists) while not theoretically inconsistent with the anarchist position (no state vs mini-state) is inconsistent in practical terms for the reasons outlined above. The exclusion and osctracism of anarcho-capitalists however is nothing more than an irrational and dogmatic prejudice that highlights a deep seated hypocrisy in many mainstream anarchists.

You spent too much time on this screed. You deliberately missed my point to promote the notion of a faux unity between right wing libertarians and Marxists.

Here, we see the real purpose of your posts

when I see the terms 'free-market' and 'capitalism' used. They're handed over by left wingers as somehow self-evident terms in a way I can only describe as childish.

Get in a wee bit of red-baiting - eh? FYI, the current form of western style capitalism is referred to as "free market capitalism". Maybe you missed the meeting - hein? :D

There are different forms of capitalism, the version that you and your ideological soulmates adhere to, is a rampant, unregulated form of the version that we live with today.
 
Back
Top Bottom