john x
Well-Known Member
Not sure what difference that would make to the percentage. There's no reason to believe that voter apathy is any more, or less among BNP voters.
john x
Griffin on Q time loads just on BBC News
- Thread starter yardbird
- Start date
Not sure what difference that would make to the percentage. There's no reason to believe that voter apathy is any more, or less among BNP voters.
john x
Rod Sleeves
New Member
I haven't watched the whole thing yet but from what I've heard and seen this is about right as far as the programme goes.
Griffin missed an open goal with Straw wibbling on about moral compasses, he should have mentioned the Iraq war there and then.
However today Griffin is on the front page of every single newspaper, every single paper has several pages dedicated to him and his party, and will repeat enough sound bites that will make him sympathetic to some. The number of people that read those papers, and visit the BNP and similar websites will be far greater than those that watched QT.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I posted this immediatley after the program on the thread in general:
I think he gave a reasonably good performance once you take into account his aims.They weren't to win over the liberal anti-racists but to speak through the windows to people feeling totally alienated from and disgusted with mainstream politics. Their legitimation is fed by being rejected by the type of people who rejected them on there tonight, not by being embraced by them - and he got exactly what he wanted and needed to achieve those limited aims, whilst further normalising his party as part of the de faco political scene. I'm sorry to say it, but nothing on there tonight would have harmed the short-medium term aims of the BNP, and the pathetic facade of Straw and the others being applauded for having the sort of non-extremist politics (how many dead? Millions?) that support the social conditions that produce the BNP might well have even have helped them reach them. Overall though, it's utterly meaningless. A load of non-racists got to applaud murderous bastards like Straw and the BNP support will be untouched.
I think he gave a reasonably good performance once you take into account his aims.They weren't to win over the liberal anti-racists but to speak through the windows to people feeling totally alienated from and disgusted with mainstream politics. Their legitimation is fed by being rejected by the type of people who rejected them on there tonight, not by being embraced by them - and he got exactly what he wanted and needed to achieve those limited aims, whilst further normalising his party as part of the de faco political scene. I'm sorry to say it, but nothing on there tonight would have harmed the short-medium term aims of the BNP, and the pathetic facade of Straw and the others being applauded for having the sort of non-extremist politics (how many dead? Millions?) that support the social conditions that produce the BNP might well have even have helped them reach them. Overall though, it's utterly meaningless. A load of non-racists got to applaud murderous bastards like Straw and the BNP support will be untouched.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
The point was everybody knew who Kelly was what he track record was, - bombing Old Bailey, hunger strike, shooting screw in mass breakout from Long Kesh and so forth. The point being that unlike Adams etc he couldn't deny his past and didn't try. He came across as honest.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Right so he won on 'immigration'. And if that was all he was to win he would have taken it from the off. However listening to Five Live this morning the callers were equally split. There were those who thought like you, he 'choked' and the other 50% who thought it was 'a stitch up'. Some of the latter may have been sympathetic to begin with anyway but nonetheless. One out of two is considerably up on the 6 per cent support Griffin enjoyed in June.
Possibly the weakest argument from the 'choked' faction was the idea that he was confronted by the British public. And that this rather than the arguments of the panel was the more decisive. Except of course this was nothing like representative of the British public at all. If it was there wouldn't be a problem would there?
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
There wasn't a single mention of the postal strike, of public spending cuts, or housing crisis or anything that really affects the day to day lives of people - except immigration.
So the just by being there, the BNP achieved its first objective mainly to put divisions of race, ethnicity, faith sexuality etc. at the core of the agenda and allow the conceal the real class issues at stake.
Yes, Griffin's performance will be ridiculed by the kind of people who pay weekly homage to the miniscule differences between parties by watching Question Time. But how will it tackle the sources of BNP support?
So the just by being there, the BNP achieved its first objective mainly to put divisions of race, ethnicity, faith sexuality etc. at the core of the agenda and allow the conceal the real class issues at stake.
Yes, Griffin's performance will be ridiculed by the kind of people who pay weekly homage to the miniscule differences between parties by watching Question Time. But how will it tackle the sources of BNP support?
I agree with this.
What positive outcomes could anti-BNP people have hoped for in this?
There were three options:
1/ that already-convinced BNP supporters would not be further emboldened
2/ that borderline supporters would not be further emboldened
3/ that groups 1 or 2 would be sufficiently swayed that they moved away from the BNP
I don't think option 3 could have been possible without some non-liberal panel members who would actually have been able to engage directly with the core of the BNP appeal (maybe a white Kenan Malik?)
Option 1: the reaction of some hard-core supporters seems to have been that he did them proud. But then they are mental
option2: i'd say that the more reasonable people who support the BNP due to its outsider status will not have been further attracted to them, as he came across as a mentalist who everyone hated. The panelists (apart from Bonnie Greer who I usually find very annoying) were pretty ineffectual.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Option 2 - my dad will now vote BNP if given the chance. The performance by the rest of the panel and those outside, not griffin decided him.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
So you have a list of the people in the studio which gives their geographic and demographic background then?
I think you are overplaying it a bit- the number of people in that category must be tiny, and probably outweighed by the number of borderline people switched off by the same thing.
The only real negative consequence of the political mainstreaming of the BNP is the further consolidating of the anti-immigrant consensus among the parties that can actually do anything.
The only real negative consequence of the political mainstreaming of the BNP is the further consolidating of the anti-immigrant consensus among the parties that can actually do anything.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I'm not! That's what he said on the phone! I wasn't saying this is an across the board general reaction, just that that was what effect the whole thing had on my dad.
ChocolateTeapot
biscuit crumbs & balloons
The "my dad fought in the war, yours didn't" jibe seemed very strange to me.
We used to say stuff in the playground like "get off this climbing frame: my dad built it" but we were about 8 years old at the time.
We used to say stuff in the playground like "get off this climbing frame: my dad built it" but we were about 8 years old at the time.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
There is a lot in this. The agenda was all on the ground the BNP wants to be on, immigration and race.
Nothing on where they would be weak. Anti-union laws, postal strike, right to buy, cosying up to the establishment via the Queen and Churchill etc
The BNP won't care what people in the audience thought, because that's not their audience.
But all this aside the main problem is not Question Time, it's the totally void space when it comes to a pro-working class alternative. We all know the far left is in a pathetic state. The IWCA have tried their best but by their own admission need success, and far more than they are getting.
I don't have the answers but the real worrying thing is not what Griffin said to this or that question on QT but the fact that there is a recession and growing disillusionment and this is being tapped into almost entirely by the far right while a pro-working class alternative is nowhere to be seen.
The tabloids laying into the BNP, won't, overall do them much good. That's the different between now and when the establishment is really in trouble and facing a pro-working class threat. In those circumstances some of the media would come out in favour of the BNP.
The main threat of the BNP at the moment is in local areas and as they get a foothold making it even harder for a pro-working class alternative to establish itself. Also pushing the agenda of the mainstream parties more and more to the right.
Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
They very swiftly moved on from the apathay towards the main parties when that was raised... a mistake if you ask me. The Tories and Labour need to recognise that its not apathay but resentment and distrust that colours most peoples opinion of politics
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
I suspect with a lot of potential BNP voters the whole 'All politics is shite so I'm looking for an alternative' is a handy narrative to gloss over the real reasons - worried about jobs/share of the welfare pie and pushing the blame out to immigration, which is the touchstone issue for people who are glad there's a political space where they can moan about Johnny Foreigner and would be doing so if the UK had a steel wall around it and the whole population had complexions the colour of skimmed milk. Personally I think even calling them fascists gives the BNP too much credit - at least fascism of old had an actual grand narrative, as opposed to the parochialism and random shouting at The Man the BNP offer.
john x
Well-Known Member
Am very glad post strike did not come up, as BNP position is support the posties and,as their media man sad on R4 this morning, "oppose Mandelsons privitisation agenda"
Griffin did best where he steered the focus away from race, such as his call for "troops out of all muslim countries" which stunned a dazed and confused Warsi
In a nutshell.
john x
And where are the left? How many canddiates will the left be bothered to fight in May 2010? Who will fill the political vacuum?
that seems a bit odd, they were pro scab in the miners strike?
BNP were but NF, who Griffin was witha the time, were pro-miner
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
The audience was overwhelmingly middle class and liberal which is not reflective of the country overall. How could you tell? By the types who asked the questions and the type of questions they asked. They may ever have been vetted beforehand. Coupled with the panel and the skewing of the format, it all came accross as a little shrill. The British believe in a sense of fair play. So as well as the protest vote Griffin must now have a decent chance of the sympathy vote as well. The fact that the audience almost trebled will have no him no harm either. I imagine he is today as recognisable as Brown and Cameron and more recognisable than Clegg. Not bad for an evening's work.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Not quite as simple as that. They are condemning the CWU. So a bit hard to support the strike when you are condemning the trade union, saying it is part of the marxist establishment. They could have been pressed on why they don't like the trade unions.
The BNP have to be taken on with class issues. Just calling them racist won't and obviously isn't working.
Saying troops out of all muslim countries is hardly a surprising attitude for someone who thinks states should be based on racial purity.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
A simple 'No' would have sufficed as an answer.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
What nationality doesn't believe in fair play?
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
Mexicans. Big hatted cheating bastards.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Do they? Are you simply referencing a commonly held belief or do you seriously believe this?
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