nino_savatte
No pasaran!
tobyjug said:Dianne Abbott thinks it is Padstow.
Well, Diane Abbott is a prick...just to state the obvious.
Griffin Cleared.
- Thread starter tollbar
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Well, Diane Abbott is a prick...just to state the obvious.
tollbar said:
may will be his hometown etc- but its still a 30% first time vote from nowhere for them. and although i agree the publicity would have picked up some votes- that many?
what was interesting is the drop in the tory vote here. i would guess cameron is already starting to irritate conervative minded people
I find it quite incredulous that the jury had difficulty in deciding upon the obvious guilt of Griffin and Collett. Surely this case must call in to question the jury system itself.
If the pernicious evil of fascism is to be countered then a more robust system of prosecution must be put into place, including juryless courts comprising instead of a panel of judges - similiar to the one-time Diplock system in the Six Counties. To allow the general public to arbitrate innocence or guilt over an issue as serious as this is asking for further travesties in the future.
If the pernicious evil of fascism is to be countered then a more robust system of prosecution must be put into place, including juryless courts comprising instead of a panel of judges - similiar to the one-time Diplock system in the Six Counties. To allow the general public to arbitrate innocence or guilt over an issue as serious as this is asking for further travesties in the future.
squonk said:
The CPS busting a gut and having pressure put on them from on high to get a case into court does not mean they are able to prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt.
The harse truth is Griffin said no more when being filmed clandestinely than can be heard in a hell of a lot of pubs in Britain on a regular basis.
How many people do you want banged up?
jeff_leigh
What happened to Dubversion ?
squonk said:
what ever laws they bring in to fight the Fash can also be used against anyone else the government considers a threat be careful what you wish for WANKER!!!
Relying on the state alone to deal with the fash has indeed proved to be futile. But this is only because of a lack of will on their part, not evidence of ideological sympathy. The state simply needs to be encouraged to take an active role in antifascism alongside its more traditional opponents.
The unfortunate reality is that the antifascist left is too weak and disparate to tackle this scourge alone, we need the strength and organisation that only state agencies can provide. I fear many on the left are too quick to view the state as always the 'enemy'. On the issue of fascism/racism they clearly have the same interests as ourselves. Let's put other differences aside for the moment and work together to to defeat a genuine common enemy.
The unfortunate reality is that the antifascist left is too weak and disparate to tackle this scourge alone, we need the strength and organisation that only state agencies can provide. I fear many on the left are too quick to view the state as always the 'enemy'. On the issue of fascism/racism they clearly have the same interests as ourselves. Let's put other differences aside for the moment and work together to to defeat a genuine common enemy.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
squonk said:
The left tends to spend too much of its time engaged in internecine bickering. It's little wonder that we often see an upsurge in the fortunes of the right - they all follow leaders, we don't.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
cockneyrebel said:
With all of the free publicity on offer, I'd credit them with more nous than to let anyone that would be conceived as 'old skool' stand at the front.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Harold Hill said:
Fact is there wasn't a single 'bonehead' in the pictures. 'Bonehead' means nazi skin, not any obviously rough or working class bloke with shaved or cropped hair. It is rather fashionable now or is this something else the left haven't come to terms with?
And if indeed the 'activist base hasn't changed' then there are doing rather well aren't they particularly when you consider what the pooled ranks of the 'educated' left in the shape of the SLP/SA managed at the polls?
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
In relation to the "religious hatred" bill, it is interesting to note that the key element that Griffin used in his defence (that won him aquittal) was that he said his comments had been aimed at a religion - Islam, rather than a race
ihateblair
New Member
Joe Reilly said:
Most of those 'boneheads' are clearly experienced fascists as you can tell when you shout to them about Waterloo and Lewisham and they get all up tight. Also the loud chanting of stuff like "Marxist Scum, off our streets" from their pig-pens is not the kind of stuff that the average racist would come out with. I think most of the people in the fash pen were ex-NF types from all over the country, so they haven't really changed many of their voters into street fighters yet. Having said this of course, their voting statistics are meaningful and I think they will start to draw from that pool of voters considerably as time goes on.
cockneyrebel
New Member
I was quite surprised as well to be honest. But from all the pictures I saw they gave out the same old image they always have.
I think ihateblair is right.
How you can know they were "rough working class blokes" and not long term fascists I don't know. As ihateblair said I doubt many run of the mill racists would be chanting "marxist scum off our streets".
And I agree that they are doing very well if their activist base hasn't changed much, and it will get a lot worse if the votes do turn into an increased activist base from normal parts of the working class, rather than bonehead weirdos.
Soul On Ice
Well-Known Member
JimPage said:
This is not a vote from nowhere. Heanor is part of unholy Derbyshire trimuvarate including Ilkeston and Codnor where Blood and Honour, C18 and BNP have always been active.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
cockneyrebel said:
If you had any experience of street anti-fascism you would know that 'bonehead' was always used to describe a specific breed of fascist; the skinhead variety, never sloppily employed as some middle class term of abuse, like 'knucklescraper.' There were no unformed skinheads outside the court ergo no 'boneheads'. That was my point. Do try and keep up.
JHE
.
Rod Liddle has an article in today's Sunday Times about the trial and retrial: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-2025181,00.html
JHE
.
Just to be accurate (pedantic?) here, Tobyjug, the rabid demonstration in London on Friday was not by Hizb um-Tahrir. I think it was organised by Bakri-ites.
Saturday's demonstration outside the Danish embassy was by Hizbum. The Beeb repeatedly described it as peaceful. It takes nutters like those demonstrating on Friday to make the outright 'slamists of Hizbum look mild.
Saturday's demonstration outside the Danish embassy was by Hizbum. The Beeb repeatedly described it as peaceful. It takes nutters like those demonstrating on Friday to make the outright 'slamists of Hizbum look mild.
JHE
.
Slamist trainspotting
Friday: The Saved Sect and/or Al-Ghurabaa - i.e., the people who were al-Muhajiroun, followers of Bakri and great admirers of Ozzie bin Liner.
http://www. thesavedsect.com/
Saturday: Hizb um-Tahrir - an international 'slamist party from which Bakri split to form al-Mu. It's bigger and more serious than al-Mu or al-Mu's replacements. Unlike the Bakri-ites, Hizbum does not call for, or revel it, armed jihad in Britain.
It was mentioned on a Beeb R4 news prog that Hizbum had organised the protest outside the Danish embassy and there was an interview with a Hizbum man who said, politely enough, that he wants a national debate on Islam and that Islam has 'solutions' for Britain.
http://www. hizb-ut-tahrir.org/
Friday: The Saved Sect and/or Al-Ghurabaa - i.e., the people who were al-Muhajiroun, followers of Bakri and great admirers of Ozzie bin Liner.
http://www. thesavedsect.com/
Saturday: Hizb um-Tahrir - an international 'slamist party from which Bakri split to form al-Mu. It's bigger and more serious than al-Mu or al-Mu's replacements. Unlike the Bakri-ites, Hizbum does not call for, or revel it, armed jihad in Britain.
It was mentioned on a Beeb R4 news prog that Hizbum had organised the protest outside the Danish embassy and there was an interview with a Hizbum man who said, politely enough, that he wants a national debate on Islam and that Islam has 'solutions' for Britain.
http://www. hizb-ut-tahrir.org/
cockneyrebel
New Member
Maybe it is you who should try and keep up.
Clearly, in my view (especially given what ihateblair has said) a lot of the people outside the court you could see in the pictures were "unformed skinheads". I think that most of the people I saw in the pictures were long term fascists. I'm surprised that given the publicity Griffin didn't want a better image of the BNP put across.
The video link on the BBC site is an example of what I'm talking about:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4672792.stm
Maybe all the people you see in the background are security, but even so, still not the image i thought Griffin was trying to put across.
Dunno what hang ups you have about "middle class terms of abuse", but I'd have no hesitation saying that the people you can see in that video link are scum.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
kasheem said:
Hardly the way to get people onside.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Agreed.
Harold Hill, you said earlier that you thought they'd have more nous than to present the kind of images that I've linked to on the BBC site.
Why do you think they didn't?
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
Well I don't think they did. You don't actually see any of the crowd in the video, just the security surrounding the interviewees.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Maybe you're right about that, but I still think that was a stupid thing to do for the BNP.
They could have had people around Griffin who weren't security, instead all you see is the usual stereotype of a BNP member standing next to them, security or otherwise. I would have thought they'd have a bit more nous than that. I mean in terms of security there were fuck loads of police around anyway.
As it goes all most people on the TV and newspapers would have seen is what you see in that video. Also thought they would have told their members to hold down chants like "marxist scum off our streets".
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
Well the BNP can only do so much about other peoples pre conceptions about white skinheads.
There was a thread on here a little while ago about an anti fash do in Leeds where one guy was a big tattoed skinhead and the perception of people here 'oh I wouldn't have fucked with him' as if every white skinhead is violent by default.
There was a thread on here a little while ago about an anti fash do in Leeds where one guy was a big tattoed skinhead and the perception of people here 'oh I wouldn't have fucked with him' as if every white skinhead is violent by default.
cockneyrebel
New Member
I can see where you're coming from, in terms of the prejudices about white skin heads, but that's not where I'm coming from (I've been a "white skin head" at various times in my life!). Although, having said that, quite a few black and Asian people I know can be a bit intimidated by that image and I can't really blame them given the history of it.
All I'm saying is that PR, like it or not, does play a part in politics, and I thought the BNP would wanna try and present a different image than the one in the video link and what I saw on TV. Griffin has said that himself, and said the image of the BNP has to change. Now given how much massive publicity they knew they were gonna get for this I'm just surprised they didn't think about it a bit more and present a bit of a different image.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
cockneyrebel said:
Well I'm sure they wouldn't be physically intimidated by David Beckham or Joe Cole.
Here is where hypocrisy comes into it. People will generally accept that but when its single women travelling on the train and they hold their bags tighter when a group of black youths come past....
It's all ignorance, probably understandable ignorance in light of peoples life experiences but it is what it is.
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