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Greens urge second pref for Livingstone

I feel sick about having to vote for Boris as first preference but voting Paddick with Boris as second preference won't really remove Livingstone.


Incorrect. Basically, the only second pref votes that will count will be those for BJ or KL (assuming that they come first and second).

If I read your position right, you should vote Paddick first and hope that enough other people do so, so that he is one of the top two. If that doesn't happen your BJ vote will come into play anyway. The Lib-dems (and the Greens) both suffer from picking up huge numbers of useless second preference votes. If the Lib-Dems in particular could convert those 2nd prefs to 1st prefs, they would get into the run-off. Last time out Simon Hughes got 284000 1st choices and 465000 2nds - if those had all been first choices, he'd have been in the run-off against Livingstone.
 
Incorrect. Basically, the only second pref votes that will count will be those for BJ or KL (assuming that they come first and second).

If I read your position right, you should vote Paddick first and hope that enough other people do so, so that he is one of the top two. If that doesn't happen your BJ vote will come into play anyway. The Lib-dems (and the Greens) both suffer from picking up huge numbers of useless second preference votes. If the Lib-Dems in particular could convert those 2nd prefs to 1st prefs, they would get into the run-off. Last time out Simon Hughes got 284000 1st choices and 465000 2nds - if those had all been first choices, he'd have been in the run-off against Livingstone.

As I said on the other thread this is what I'm looking at doing. Paddick 1 and Johnson 2
 
Though I am against this move, I read a poster on another board make a legitimate point: it will start placing the idea in peoples heads that Green is the natural alternative vote to Labour.
 
We got a leaflet for the "Left List" - and the leaflet wasn't even left justified! :mad:

As for that mugshot of Ms German...didn't anyone advise her to go and get some nice pics done? Photoshoot or something like that? You can do one of those red letter day thingys with your hair and make up done and a nice pic for under £40 these days. Surely something to put on the expenses?!?! (Especially when going face to face with the lovely Lady Galadriel of the Greens.)
 
I think that is how i will vote i don't really want either livingstone or johnstone so will vote green and second pref livingstone very grudgingly
 
livingstone in two terms has done virtually nothing green .. transport is a total diversion .. the only greeen policy would be decentralisation and job swops to dramaticallly cut commuting .. he has done nothing for local employment and appears to have thrown his lot in totally with the city as the sole dynamo of london's economy .. and he support for the olympics sums it all up .. the greens need to move beyond simply calling for elctoral change .. p.s. while Boris is a potential nightmare it is the assembly that is more dangerous if the tories get in .. at the end of the day it is all a farce and show s yet again we HAVE to start getting stuck in at teh base
 
So, am I to assume that many on this thread (especially KBJ) want to see that cunt, Boris Johnson elected mayor?

Nice. :rolleyes:

No I just want Livingstone gone. If it was at all feasible for Paddick to be Mayor then that would be my ultimate preference.

However a Johnson mayoralty may well have a positive sideeffect. People might start noticing how little power the Assembly has and start campaiging for more powers to the assembly.

Johnson has said himself that he wants to see the Assembly play more of a role in curbing the excesses of the mayoralty.

I supported Livingstone when he was an inpependent but now he is so closely identified with the justifiably hated NL Govt I dont' see how anyone who can even remotely referr to them selves as a progressive in thought or deed can justify supporting Livingstone.

The man is a corrupt fucker he is divisive playing on dodgy identity politics embracing anti semitic nutters, spewing his arrogance all over our city. Time for Livingstone to become Livingsgone.
 
livingstone in two terms has done virtually nothing green .. transport is a total diversion .. the only greeen policy would be decentralisation and job swops to dramaticallly cut commuting .. he has done nothing for local employment and appears to have thrown his lot in totally with the city as the sole dynamo of london's economy .. and he support for the olympics sums it all up .. the greens need to move beyond simply calling for elctoral change .. p.s. while Boris is a potential nightmare it is the assembly that is more dangerous if the tories get in .. at the end of the day it is all a farce and show s yet again we HAVE to start getting stuck in at teh base

You say "transport is a total diversion" and then talk about cutting commuting. But people dont only use trains, buses and tubes to get to and from work. They need it to see friends and relatives, shopping and leisure activities. And Livingstone has increased the number of buses and bus routes. Also he has taken over the Silverlink train routes and will be increasing services. Still major problems with the tubes but it is running with more services than before he took over. So he deserves to be Mayor for the improvements to public transport if nothing else.

BarryB
 
No I just want Livingstone gone. If it was at all feasible for Paddick to be Mayor then that would be my ultimate preference.

However a Johnson mayoralty may well have a positive sideeffect. People might start noticing how little power the Assembly has and start campaiging for more powers to the assembly.

Johnson has said himself that he wants to see the Assembly play more of a role in curbing the excesses of the mayoralty.

I supported Livingstone when he was an inpependent but now he is so closely identified with the justifiably hated NL Govt I dont' see how anyone who can even remotely referr to them selves as a progressive in thought or deed can justify supporting Livingstone.

The man is a corrupt fucker he is divisive playing on dodgy identity politics embracing anti semitic nutters, spewing his arrogance all over our city. Time for Livingstone to become Livingsgone.

Nah, you're Johnson's number one cheerleader and your antipathy towards Livingstone is based on your own selfishness and has nothing to do with the man's politics.

Johnson has said himself that he wants to see the Assembly play more of a role in curbing the excesses of the mayoralty.

And you believe him? Oh, the naiveté! :D

Johnson has a formidable media machine at his disposal and it is this machine that has been responsible for planting and spreading anti-Ken stories in the press. Of course, you wouldn't have noticed this because your sympathies are squarely with Johnson.

The man is a corrupt fucker he is divisive playing on dodgy identity politics embracing anti semitic nutters, spewing his arrogance all over our city. Time for Livingstone to become Livingsgone.

And Johnson isn't corrupt? You are naive. So you're quite happy to support this racist, bigoted Tory scumbag auld Etonian in preference to someone whom you describe (and without foundation) as "anti-Semitic"? LOL!!! Talk about confused. :D
However a Johnson mayoralty may well have a positive sideeffect. People might start noticing how little power the Assembly has and start campaiging for more powers to the assembly.

Wishful thinking. He'll only move his cronies into City Hall. The GLA will remain as it is.
 
You say "transport is a total diversion" and then talk about cutting commuting. But people dont only use trains, buses and tubes to get to and from work. They need it to see friends and relatives, shopping and leisure activities. And Livingstone has increased the number of buses and bus routes. Also he has taken over the Silverlink train routes and will be increasing services. Still major problems with the tubes but it is running with more services than before he took over. So he deserves to be Mayor for the improvements to public transport if nothing else.

BarryB

??but people have moved away from their families cos of work too .. which was my point .. the tube is fine for family and social visists ( it would be nice and empty!) .. but that is NOT it's function which is to bring in labour for ken's City masters .. he spends OUR millions for THEIR benefit .. and you and the Labourites defend this?? LOL

that transport is nothing to do with families but is a social and environment disaster clear .. it is the issue of where jobs are located that is the only one of importance .. all livingstone has done is buy a load of mercedes cattle trucks to shift people into the city quicker for his City mates .. nice one ..

where is the employment in hackney/haggerston? what has ken done for jobs in hackney/haggerston? or housing? absolutely nothing .. the only new jobs and houses in hackney are for yuppies .. your councillor colleagues are part of that are they not? your colleague who you worked so hard to get elected is a classic Millbank yuppy living in his gated yuppy canalside development that you ( and I) could not dream of affording ..

so do you support the ELL extension? another classic ken 'hey i'm improving transport' that is simply using poor people's rates to pay for transport links for the bosses labour supply .. and a massive buy to let orgy .. and you say nothing ..
 
??but people have moved away from their families cos of work too .. which was my point .. the tube is fine for family and social visists ( it would be nice and empty!) .. but that is NOT it's function which is to bring in labour for ken's City masters .. he spends OUR millions for THEIR benefit .. and you and the Labourites defend this?? LOL

that transport is nothing to do with families but is a social and environment disaster clear .. it is the issue of where jobs are located that is the only one of importance .. all livingstone has done is buy a load of mercedes cattle trucks to shift people into the city quicker for his City mates .. nice one ..

where is the employment in hackney/haggerston? what has ken done for jobs in hackney/haggerston? or housing? absolutely nothing .. the only new jobs and houses in hackney are for yuppies .. your councillor colleagues are part of that are they not? your colleague who you worked so hard to get elected is a classic Millbank yuppy living in his gated yuppy canalside development that you ( and I) could not dream of affording ..

so do you support the ELL extension? another classic ken 'hey i'm improving transport' that is simply using poor people's rates to pay for transport links for the bosses labour supply .. and a massive buy to let orgy .. and you say nothing ..

You should know that the Bendy Buses are only a small proportion of the new buses on Londons streets. Of course I support the building of the East London Line. Are you seriously telling me that you are opposing it? Are Hackney Independent going to tell the people of Haggerston in the 2010 elections that they are opposed to it. Like fuck you will. As for who runs the ELL im opposed to it being run on TFLs behalf by a private company (such as how the Docklands Light Railway is). It should be directly run by TFL.

As for my Councillor colleagues flat. Ive been into it so I can tell you that if you think it is a yuppy development then you have no idea what you are talking about.

You ask where is the employment in Hackney/Haggerston. True that there are no longer the large factories such as Lesneys. And those large factories wont be coming back. Instead jobs are in smaller industrial units, the shops, the transport network, hospitals, the council. Which is not to say that there isnt an unemployment problem. But to say that the only new jobs and homes are for yuppies is just plain wrong. Many of the new housing developments do house working class people. And the same with jobs.

The trouble with you is that you think all is doom and gloom. Well it isnt.

BarryB
 
I was going to give the Green's my 2nd vote, not now.

You clearly don't understand the system. There is no point whatsoever giving the Greens a 2nd pref vote since they have no chance of being left in the contest when 2nd pref votes count (the only feasible reason would be if you were to vote Ken 1st and then wanted to emphasise importance of environment with a Green 2nd pref) I wonder if Labour would suggest their supporters do this?

I think the Greens have done exactly the right thing. You don't have to be a big fan of Ken to know that even abstaining on whether it's him or Boris is extremely self-indulgent. Anyone who has no view on which one of them gets in is frankly helping Johnson.
 
You should know that the Bendy Buses are only a small proportion of the new buses on Londons streets. Of course I support the building of the East London Line. Are you seriously telling me that you are opposing it? Are Hackney Independent going to tell the people of Haggerston in 2010 that they are opposed to it. Like fuck you will. As for who runs the ELL im opposed to it being run on TFLs behalf by a private company (such as how the Docklands Light Railway is). It should be directly run by TFL.

As for my Councillor colleagues flat. Ive been into it, you havent. I can tell you that if you think it is a yuppy development then you have no idea what you are talking about.

You ask where is the employment in Hackney/Haggerston. True that vthere are no longer the large factories such as Lesneys. And those large factories wont be coming back. Instead jobs are in smaller industrial units, the shops, the transport network, hospitals, the council. Which is not to say that there isnt an unemployment problem. But to say that the only new jobs and homes are for yuppies is just plain wrong. Many of the new housing developments do house working class people. And the same with jobs.

The trouble with you is that you think all is doom and gloom. Well it isnt.

BarryB

what hackney do you live in?? LOL talk of rose ( new labour tinted ) glassses!! So you do not think the Johnny McShann you fought so hard to get elected is is a New Labour Millbank yuppy??? LOL that is how BAD it in the NLP that you a trotskyist defend the new labour yuppies ( i am sorry to hear his gated canalsaide development is not as posh as i thought it might be .. when he is an MP no doubt he will move somewhere nicer .. leaving you far behind )

to repeat .. KL has done NOTHING for w/c people in haggerston or hackney or any other part of london .. he has had 8 years to try to help w/c people in london .. i can see, and you show me, NO evidence he has done anything

- and the ELL .. did i say i was against? no but i and the vast majority of local people am TOTALLY against the way it is being done by Livingstone .. it is purely being built as a massive speculative development and to shift people more quickly into the city .. i can barely believe you do not understand this ..

- and you ask of the people of haggerston in 2010? in my experiance it is the yuppies who are the most in favour of this ..

you ever heard anyone say ' my daughter can't get a job and her and her sister are doing our heads in because they can't get anywhere to live and the council isn't doing the repairs properly and now they are saying we have to go to a Housig association cos they haven'ty got the money to do put lifts in and we'll have to pay more rent and the kids are frightening the old people in the stair wells cos the youth club got shut down BUT HEY isn't it great they are building the ELL!" LOL .. doom and gloom barry? no reality

as you well know the ELL has not and was never a demand for w/c people in dalston or anywhere else .. improvements in housing and jobs were ..

the point that you have spectacularly missed is that spending millions ( no billions ) on transport entirely misses the point i was making ( and related to the OP) that it is decentralising employment that is the ONLY socially and environmental correct thing .. KL has failed spectacularly indeed has made things far worse

as i said again KL has chosen one route only .. to throw his all in with the City of London as the sole dynamo of Londons economy .. it is illustrative of the almost utter degeneracy of the Trotskyist movement that you support this ..

what would a future editor of Revolutionary History have to write about this period of your brand of Trotskyism I wonder

and maybe you are in the dark re your colleague and his company Luther Pendragon?
 
and to repeat .. what has KL done NOTHING for w/c people in haggerston or hackney or any other part of london??? .. he has had 8 years to try to help w/c people in london .. i see, and you show me, NO evidence he has done
anything

My question to you and all the other Johnson supporters is "What will Johnson do for working class communities"? Indeed, what will he do with regards to public transport, aside from getting rid of bendy buses? He's all soundbite and no substance.
 
I think I do.

I want to vote for a parties I have an affinity with, not indulge in electoral arithmetic. I was going to vote for them to show support and hope it influences others to move into their ground, not now.

You are deliberately refusing to take a judgement on who would be better for London, Boris or Ken? This is not a credible politics - if you want to make anti Labour gesture, why not make it at GLA level where you might actually help to get someone elected?
 
You are deliberately refusing to take a judgement on who would be better for London, Boris or Ken? This is not a credible politics - if you want to make anti Labour gesture, why not make it at GLA level where you might actually help to get someone elected?

How am I? I'm voting for the person I want to have the job. I think I've said several times I think Ken has run out of steam, I've also said the London Mayoral system is screwed and screwing Londoners. The Mayor isn't king of London and still doesn't have the powers that my local Government has, he doesn't pay for my Police, Schools or even to get my bins collected. He basically runs the buses and lets people build tall things.

To be honest if I had my way I'd scrap it.
 
My question to you and all the other Johnson supporters is "What will Johnson do for working class communities"? Indeed, what will he do with regards to public transport, aside from getting rid of bendy buses? He's all soundbite and no substance.

You quoted durutti prior to this remark. I v much doubt he advocates a vote for the toff Boris, just can't stand Livingstone.

Fuck knows who I'll vote for in the coming charade. No surprise tho', I haven't felt like anyone's worth voting for for years ...
 
How am I? I'm voting for the person I want to have the job. I think I've said several times I think Ken has run out of steam

so you're supporting Boris then, effectively. The electoral system means that - in the current context - you have 3 options: 1 (ken), 2 (Boris), 3 (abstain/waste your vote). If you dont do 1) then effectively you are inviting a right wing Tory mayoralty.

Do you honestly think Boris would seek to weaken the powers of the mayors office?
 
So the Green Party in London is backing the Labour scum, whose policies run against everything the Greens stand for (or rather should stand for IMO)...

(hangs head in shame)

I would have thought you would have known better, Green Party, even the Lib Dems would have been a better 2nd choice...

All the same, good luck to Sian Berry, but my once soild support for the Greens has been tested even further, it was strained ever since GLA Green member Jennifer Jones backed Ian "I wasn't responsible for offing Juan Charles de Menezes, honest!" Blair.
 
so you're supporting Boris then, effectively. The electoral system means that - in the current context - you have 3 options: 1 (ken), 2 (Boris), 3 (abstain/waste your vote). If you dont do 1) then effectively you are inviting a right wing Tory mayoralty.

Do you honestly think Boris would seek to weaken the powers of the mayors office?

I'm supporting him by not voting for him?

Given that Johnson appears to have a policy of asking to strengthen the GLA I'm sure someone can hold him up to it if he gets in. Didn't Ken make a few promised last time he stood which he broke almost immediately?

Johnson has also said that he doesn't want the extensions in planning powers Ken wants, which I have to say if appealing to me.
 
You quoted durutti prior to this remark. I v much doubt he advocates a vote for the toff Boris, just can't stand Livingstone.

Fuck knows who I'll vote for in the coming charade. No surprise tho', I haven't felt like anyone's worth voting for for years ...

Tbh, I think he's buying into Johnson's anti-Ken spiel/spin. According to durutti Livingstone has "done nothing for w/c people". Would Johnson do anything for w/c people? Or Paddick?
 
Tbh, I think he's buying into Johnson's anti-Ken spiel/spin. According to durutti Livingstone has "done nothing for w/c people". Would Johnson do anything for w/c people? Or Paddick?

Paddick maybe (though I tink Vince Cable would be a better choice), Johnson no.
 
My question to you and all the other Johnson supporters is "What will Johnson do for working class communities"? Indeed, what will he do with regards to public transport, aside from getting rid of bendy buses? He's all soundbite and no substance.

excuse me? :D i am NOT supporting Boris 'the toff' Johnson in any way at all thank you, for the reasons you state! :D
 
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